Author Topic: Chapter Tactics  (Read 4559 times)

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Offline Tobas DA

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Chapter Tactics
« on: July 20, 2017, 04:19:28 AM »
Hi,

Chapter Tactics are out for Space Marines. What Chapter Tactics would you like to see for Dark Angels?

A little brainstorming on what we lost:
- grim resolve: stubborn, overwatch on 5+
- ravenwing: reroll- jink, (hit and run, scout, outflank). Kind of useless jink is still existing.
- deathwing: hatred (CSM), (vengeful strike). Fearless and hatred (fallen) is still existing.

In general I would like to see 3 different "chapter tactics" for deathwing, ravenwing and greenwing. And some stratagems for synergy between them.
To encourage mixed wing.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 05:42:36 AM by Tobas DA »

Offline Fritz40K

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Re: Chapter Tactics
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2017, 09:40:33 AM »
I'd like to see something Deathwing Assault like- something to make their terminators act differently, and honor such an important place they have in the lore. 
Though my men may sleep, and my ships rest at anchor, my foes know full well that big guns never tire...

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Offline Tobas DA

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Re: Chapter Tactics
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2017, 02:49:58 PM »
Hello Primarch Fritz, I am honored.

I restarted playing Dark Angels at beginning of 6th edition, since that time Deathwing had no assault bonuses. The focus seemed to be on shooting Terminators, (vengeful strike) twin linked shooting on the turn of deepstrike. That was OK but a little sad for Deathwing Knights (and pure assault Terminators).

Yes, some kind of assault bonus would be nice. I would prefer a bonus in combination with teleporting on the table.

Maybe: Stratagem (1CP): Precision deepstrike. If teleporting onto the table (within 6" of a friendly Ravenwing unit), a Deathwing unit must only stay more than 3" away from any enemy model.

Something to make deepstrike assault more likely. Maybe deepstriking Venerable Dreadnoughts  :)

Offline Tobas DA

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Re: Chapter Tactics
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2017, 04:16:25 PM »
Chapter Tactics I would like to see for Dark Angels:

Dark Angels are always described as fearless and stubborn, fighting to the last against all odds, unwilling to retreat (even if it would be better). Characters and Deathwing always had the fearless rule and all DA had the stubborn rule.
Also DA are described as relentless in their defense and attacks.

I loved the feeling playing DA, sometimes being decimated and winning by point, because one last tactical marine refused to retreat. "You lost CC by 3 (Ld 8 - 3 = 5) you rolled a 8, you retreat. NO stubborn  :)"
I play Imperial Fists as allies and often had the feeling, that something is wrong with their morale.

General Chapter Tactics:
Grim Resolve: All DA models add +1 to their Ld (just like Ultramarines CT), in addition they hit on 5+, if firing overwatch (the more defensive approach of DA, charge us but we will stand and fight). 

Ravenwing CT (in addition): If more than 12" away, the enemy subtracts -1 from their to hit rolls (Raven Guard CT), in addition if falling back, RW can shoot in the shooting phase with a -1 to hit modifier (unless also having the fly rule) (Ultramarines CT again). Unlike White Scars, who can charge again.

Deathwing (in addition): fearless, vengeful strike: in the turn a DW units teleports onto the table, it can re roll failed to hit and to wound rolls of 1 (shooting and CC). So Assault Terminators also have a bonus. 

It might be a bit to mutch, but RW and DW are more expensive than vanilla Space Marines.

Stratagems is the next topic.

 

Online Nightwing7x

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Re: Chapter Tactics
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2017, 02:21:23 AM »
I quite like what you have come up with Tobas. However the only thing I could see as potential over kill is the ravenwing being -1 to hit if they are 12" away. As you could stack the darkshroud with that and your opponent would be at -2 to hit you at more than 12" away. I think instead they should get something else. I cannot think of anything off the top of my head, but maybe for black knights some kind of skilled rider ability, like in previous editions.

I do agree with the deathwing and greenwing ideas you have proposed. Although maybe give the deathwing some kind of reroll a single charge dice when charging out of deep strike. Potential overkill I am aware, and deathwing are traditionally shooty. I would make the argument that deathwing in the fluff perform devastating deepstrikes, whether it be charges or shooting. This is me just thinking out loud however so please feel free to disagree. Or maybe give deathwing the ability to pick when they arrive, the reroll a single charge distance dice out of deep strike, or as you proposed, reroll failed hits and wounds of 1 out of shooting.

Great ideas however, keep it up brother.

Offline ChaplainNemiel

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Re: Chapter Tactics
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2017, 11:43:47 PM »
This edition I will focus entirely on DW.
I have played and will only ever play Dark Angels but DW is really my favourite force in the entire lore.

The only reason why I have RW is because the last 2 editions they were really the only viable choice (next to lions blade in 7th)
Depending on what happens with the codex I might be selling most of my entirely robed RW bikes and robed tacticals (my entire army is robed for all 3 wings) using vet and knight kits.

That said I would like to see chapter tactics that promote single wing and dual wing synnergy...Honestly though I do not see any point for dual wing now without the need for teleport homers...Unless you are playing with a lot of objectives it will be beneficial to have mobile RW units to capture and harass while DW is right in the enemy face and HAS to be dealt with.
For DW

- I still wish GW gave termies T5 base. Something that will give T5 boons
-1 rend on all shooting attacks (or even just storm bolters) the turn they arrive from DS.
- something that will get us into combat easier from deep strike and now allow opponents to simply run away and shoot us.
- DW can ds 6 inches from enemy models
- DA do not require 50/50 on table and in reserve

Also...I wish Azrael can teleport as he does so often in the lore

Offline Rezial

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Re: Chapter Tactics
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2017, 04:55:29 PM »
I don't have any concrete ideas as of yet but I would definitely like to see a buff to Dark Angels command points generation.  I feel like the rumors of the return of the Lion as a second loyal Primarch have some weight and it would be nice to see synergy of that sort.  Superior tactical awareness that they are famed for.  I am also dearly hoping that we get a buff to Champions.  In the lore DA have some of the most disciplined and accomplished duelists of any Chapter and it would be nice to see a Dark Angel character that can actually go toe-to-toe with any comparable Space Wolf and have an equal chance to win.

I agree about the Deathwing Assault option being a closer deploy range and first turn buff.  Hatred of Chaos was always decent as well.  Ravenwing need to be the equal of White Scars hands down.  If they won't be allowed to do that with CC then it better be shooting but they should NEVER be considered second to the Scars. 

Also, hey guys.  I came back from the warp.  Going to be splitting my focus between a lot of armies but DA is always my no. 1.
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Offline ChaplainNemiel

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Re: Chapter Tactics
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2017, 07:17:44 PM »
Rejoice brothers! Lord Rezial has returned!

Online Nightwing7x

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Re: Chapter Tactics
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2017, 01:55:36 PM »
I definitely agree that we need some more command points. My common opponent is Ultramarines. It bothers me that the Dark Angels are famed for tactical prowess, and not backing down. So when I see my opponent put Calgar down on the board, it bothers me. He gives them 2 more command points while Azreal only gives 1 more. What ever happened to the whole thing for Azrael where he gave you +1 to sieze and Ld10 for everyone in his detachment?

Rezial, I think this is the edition of our characters being represented as the duelist they are. Blades of Caliban are a flat upgrade over what other company champions have, not to mention they are free. The halberd of caliban is still amazing, and our named characters can do some serious damage in close combat. The last game I played, Azrael took down Typhus and Ahriman by himself. I have also seen Azrael take Guilliman down to half his wounds again by himself. Belial oh man he is great again, He can duke it out with the best of them and come out on top. Sammael, can beat the Khan in shooting and combat. The list goes on and on.

I am also disappointed to see the disappearance of grim resolve from last edition. I would love to see this return and give greenwing the flavor it had before. Maybe this time it would give us, +1 Ld like the ultramarines tactic, and give us back the improved ballistic skill in overwatch. I do not want the ridiculous full ballistic skill overwatch, but just +1 instead.

Finally I still do not know what they should give the Ravenwing for a tactic. Perhaps they should improve the jink a bit or do what they did with the scars and improve their speed.

Offline Rezial

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Re: Chapter Tactics
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2017, 04:22:17 PM »
Well met Nightwing.

My own Dark Angels are on the back burner so to speak as I'm focused on some other armies that I'm less emotionally invested in.  I want to see if a DA codex is forthcoming in 2017 before I go and rebuild my force again and largely because when I took a break from 40k my DA were torn apart being revamped already.

I had already updated Azrael and Ezekiel to 32mm thankfully so I anticipate they will be early staples of my new army.  I am overjoyed to hear Belial is doing solid work.  He was a disappointment to me overall since 5th edition.  Sammael is certainly good and even better than a lot of other characters when we take into account his ability to assault units above ground level added to his other tricks.  Khan can't do that either unless he's on foot.

So for Ravenwing I am troubled by the decision between regular biker and Black Knights.  My greatest desire is to see standard Black Knights become a very fearsome unit of themselves.  My opinion is that Corvus Hammers need to have a very potent output on the table and their carriers must not be worse in CC just because their over all army is considered more shooty.  Otherwise what's the point of a specialty faction weapon?  Blood Angels Encarmine Swords are an example where so far this is also a potential issue.  Sanguinary Guard are lacking a bit as a result.  Normally we see that Space Wolves gain a great benefit with their previous frost weapons but I haven't spoken with or played any Wolves players yet so I don't really know how that's going.
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Online Nightwing7x

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Re: Chapter Tactics
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2017, 11:48:45 PM »
Well you will be happy to know that Black Knights are a force to be reckoned with in shooting and combat. Their plasma talons are assault 2 plasma guns with 18" range. Then their hammers are S+1 AP-1 and 1 damage, but on a 6 to wound it does d3 damage. Black Knights are a very big threat, being able to advance and still shoot their plasma talons, while also gaining a 5+ invuln from incoming shooting is dangerous.

However they come at a cost, being 50 points a model. They might be 2 wounds now and T5 with a 3+ armor, but with how fast things die now that's above average, but its pricey for 50 points a model.

Offline Rezial

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Re: Chapter Tactics
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2017, 01:53:51 AM »
I would agree the points is a key factor.  Also as I see it unfortunately a unit full of power swords would be better weapons than Corvus Hammers.  I'd rather have a stronger AP than +1 STR since I'm only getting to 5.  Seems like STR 5 is pretty lack-luster.  Also d3 damage is just ok.  Now that flail of the unforgiven is serious but we can't bring multiples or get it on a bike.  Plasma Talons seem awesome.

Well I do hope the Chapter Tactics are really useful.  At the very least I want to see a tight balance between DA, BA, and SW post codices.
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Online Nightwing7x

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Re: Chapter Tactics
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2017, 02:06:40 AM »
Guys I think I have finally figured out what I believe we should have for a ravenwing tactic. I would like to propose, in addition to the current jink mechanic, that our bikes be able to pull back from combat, and shoot. The white scars get increase movement and can charge again but cant shoot. Dark Angels are all about shooting so I propose we be able to fall back and shoot. Subsequently I would like to see a return to the teleport homers on our bikes. Because right now, aside from jink we do not have any special rules to set our bikes apart from the codex chapters.

As heretical as this may sound, maybe give our bikes a different version of the teleport homers. Something a kin to the tau homing beacon. Allowing our Deathwing brethren to deepstrike closer than 9".

Another idea would be to give our bikes the old scout, and/or outflank rule.

I do want to know what you guys think about these ideas however. Maybe we will get these in the form of stratagems once our codex comes out.

Offline Tobas DA

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Re: Chapter Tactics
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2017, 06:24:26 AM »
Nice to see a lively discussion, I like it :)

Some points seem to  crystallize out.

Deathwing
- Buff if teleporting in: re-roll to hit and or to wound / or bonus to AP (Chapter Tactics)
- Ability to deepstrike closer to enemy unit (~6") to increase chance of assault (Stratagem and or synergy with RW teleport homer/ "call in the DW")

Ravenwing
- Increase survive-ability, some sort of jink or hard to hit bonus (CT).
- Hit and run ability (~fall back and shoot) (CT)
- Scout and or outflank ability (~SG)

I donīt like the 5++ if advancing, not comparable worth for all RW, only "semi usable" with assault weapons. Flat 5++ with no disadvantage (like 6th ed), maybe increased to 4++ if advancing (all only against shooting attacks).
Or a -1 to hit modifier instead of invulnerable save (if more than ~12" away).
I like this, because it would be good for landspeeders/ fliers  shooting from a distance (they have no bonus from a hit and run ability (~fall back and shoot); have the fly keyword anyway)
Less good for bikes closing in (rapid fire range/ charge), but they would profit from hit and run.

Greenwing (general)
- Moral buff (~+1 Ld/ some stubborn rule)
- Some overwatch buff (~ hit on 5+); I strongly agree with Nightwing, no full BS spam. 
- Tactical genius buff (~ more command points/ regain CP)

So far my summary.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 06:27:03 AM by Tobas DA »

Offline ANevskyUSA

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Re: Chapter Tactics
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2017, 10:38:51 AM »
Now that Codex Heretic Astartes: Chaos Space Marines is out, I bet that the Dark Angels chapter tactic will be identical to the Fallen Angels special ability: re-roll 1's when shooting (incl. overwatch) if the squad didn't move + lose a maximum of 1 model if a unit fails a morale test.