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Messages - Odras

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1
I agree that the alaitoc attribute is very useful for units like dark reapers and fire prisms that they can stay at the backfield and they have the range to exploit it but for the other units it is not the best attribute.

So I want your advice. At the list with the wraithlords, the walkers and the wraithknight a few posts below which is the best craftworld for the wraithknight? the -1 to hit rolls? the 6+ fnp? or the iyanden attribute? I cannot decide and my question is sincere, I don't want to become ironic or anything.

I want to start by apologising, I think my last post was too aggressive I misinterpreted what you had posted because on a different forum I spent a lot of time analysing and providing some commentary on someones list only to be abused because I didn't tell them what they wanted to hear.

To answer your first few points:

People were playing Ynnari because soulburst was broken (and arguably is still good, I might post up some thoughts on this later). The 6+ FNP from the Yncarne was an asset yes, but it was not the reason people were playing Ynnari. People were playing Ynnari for those situations where you have just shot three quarters of your army and wiped out a third of theirs and you say "ok that's the end of my psychic phase, now on to shooting". If you are talking about the lists where the Yncarne FNP was given to very large number of razorwing flocks, that was more an issue with the razorwing flocks being extremely good at the time rather than the FNP being good. This can be seen by the fact that this tactic is not used anymore. This is the only example of the FNP being the Yncarne's primary purpose I can think of / have seen.

With respect to the Harlequins and their -1, it was and still is that good. Neither the Mirage Launchers or the Alaitoc bonus are game breaking but they do put craftworlds and harlequins in a unique position to be very resilient against an alpha strike. My opinion on why Alaitoc has seemed to be much more hyped than the harlequins one was because Alaitoc has a lot more potential for stacking the negative to hit modifiers, and the Craftworlds codex is just in a better place. The index harlequins with the were bad and with the -1 to hit became ok. Alaitoc craftworld attribute takes a codex that is pretty good, and makes it really frustrating for opponents who are used to alphastriking their way to victory against most lists.

Also remember that I am not necessarily claiming that the Alaitoc trait is game-breaking, (although it is in certain situations), I am just claiming that it is the best choice of the 5 options we get and that in most cases, taking even one of your detachments as something else is a weaker choice for your list.

In responding to your point on the use of the Saim-Hann trait for melee-centric armies or detachments I was in the same boat as you recently and only just changed my mind. If you look at one of the threads I posted lower I asked specifically that question, Saim-Hann vs Alaitoc. I would encourage you to have a look at this article, specifically the comments section where The Mattler and Abusepuppy have a fairly lengthy discussion on the exact same topic. This was the conversation that changed my mind on the topic. I highly suggest people have a read of the whole thing as these two both have some very insightful opinions on how to best run Eldar.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/12/eldar-codex-review-special-rules/#IDComment1055628011.

A quick summary of the above discussion with respect to Saim-Hann. Re-rolling charges, the Novalance, and the Warriors of the raging winds stratagem is really good for units like shining spears and banshees, but are not worth the investment of a whole detachment to take.

To address your comment on opinions of each of the attributes I thought I would state my opinion of each of them, including their relevant warlord traits, relics and stratagems because considering them on their own is not really that useful.

Bad Craftworlds
Biel-Tan: Attribute does what an Autach does but only for Shuriken weapons. Find the points to take an Autach and also get whichever other bonus you choose. Have to mention their warlord trait, for being pretty much the best on in the game, but still not worth the opportunity cost for taking a whole detachment as Beil Tan and making one of them your warlord. None of their relics or stratagems are anything to make them worth taking.

Iyanden: I see the Iyanden trait as a big trap. Yes it is good to keep things more effective at lower wounds, but it is better to keep them effective for longer by preventing them from taking the wounds in the first place through either the Alaitoc or Ulthwe traits. The morale thing is good but most of the eldar armies I see are running smaller squads most of the time and morale just isn't a problem. The Psytronome is good, but much like the Biel-Tan warlord trait, one good thing is not worth the opportunity cost of taking a whole detachment as Iyanden.

Ok Craftworlds
Ulthwe: Ulthwe trait is good, but the biggest problem with it is that it is doing the same thing (Survivability) but not as good as Alaitoc. A -1 to hit is better at keeping things alive in nearly all situations than the 6+ FNP. A lot of people claim that the Ulthwe trait is always on whereas the Alaitoc trait only applies further away from 12" but that is not really true. There are a lot of situations where the 6+ is worth so little it is negligible. Think about a situation where something with 2 damage guns (like dark reapers) is shooting at single wound targets. The Ulthwe trait will only save 1 in 36 of those models who fail their save, as they have to roll a double 6 to prevent the damage from both wounds. On top of this, there is the units who already have FNP saves for which the trait does nothing. I'm not trying to say that Alaitoc is always effective either, but both of the traits have times when they don't apply. The bonus for Alaitoc trait I find is the ability for you to manipulate the movement of your opponent. I have often found my opponents make mistakes with their positioning because they are too concerned with trying to circumvent the Alaitoc trait. Ulthwe warlord trait is reasonable as more command points are always good, and if you are using guardians the stratagem is also pretty good which is part of the reason I rate Ulthwe OK and not bad like Iyanden and Biel-Tan.

Saim-Hann: I will be brief since I touched on it above. Saim-Hann is good, trait, relic and stratagem are all fantastic but the problem is they are only worth it for a small portion of the eldar army and the cost of taking a whole detachment as them is generally not worth it. This is definitely arguable though and chosing a Saim-Hann detachment of banshees or shining spears with an autach with novalance might be worth it. Additionally you have to consider that Alaitoc banshees and spears will be alive longer to make more charges when comparing that with the Saim-Hann benefit of re-rolling the charge distance. I would be interested to hear anyone else's opinions on this though.

Good Craftworld:
Alaitoc: Negatives to hit are just that good, they along with fantastic deep strike defence make craftworld Eldar very resilient to the alpha strike which I find very prevalent in the meta at the moment. Additionally they allow me to comfortable take the second turn, which lets me not care about having a large number of units and gives the benefit of going second which is good for most missions I play. On top of this they have a great relic, and a stratagem which while situational, helps arguably the strongest troops choice in our army be very difficult to remove from an objective at a key moment in the game. To me Eldar's weakness is defence, they go down to someone farting in their direction. The Alaitoc trait is the best way to shore that up.

Here is the list I am assuming that you are talking about:

Alaitoc battalion

spiritseer
spiritseer

5 dire avengers with diresword exarch
5 dire avengers with diresword exarch
5 dire avengers with double shuriken exarch

hemlock wraithfighter, jinx

wave serpent, spirit stones,vectored engines shuriken cannons (for two units avengers)

vyper, 2x shuriken cannons
vyper, 2x shuriken cannons

warwalker, brightlance, shuriken cannon
warwalker, brightlance, shuriken cannon
warwalker, brightlance, shuriken cannon

Alaitoc supreme detachment

Wraithknight, heavy wraithcannons

Iyanden spearhead

spiritseer

Wraithlord,2x shuriken catapults, 2x shuriken cannons
Wraithlord,2x shuriken catapults, 2x shuriken cannons
Wraithlord,2x shuriken catapults, 2x shuriken cannons

funny list! I am going to test it! I am not sure if it going to be an easy win for the opponent or it is going to be very difficult for the opponent to deal with all these high toughness/wounds models.

To answer your question on which trait is best for the wraithknight, I think it is Alaitoc. As I explained above, I believe that the Iyanden trait is a trap, as keeping the knight effective by preventing wounds is better than it being effective at lower wounds. In this situation Ulthwe is close to Alaitoc, however I still believe Alaitoc has the edge. With the heavy wraithcannons, you want to stand back and shoot. Very few targets are going to want to come within 12" for fear of being charged by the knight. I give the edge to Alaitoc just because of the fact that -1 to be hit is just better than a chance to ignore some damage.

For all the reasons outlined above, I would suggest changing the wraithlord detachment too.

2
I think that we can use other attributes too and not only the almighty - 1 to hit rolls....  If you have an eldar opponent with a list full of dark reapers as the lists you propose then you would have no attribute at all.

You can yes, and I doubt many people at all would argue that you can't. What mcphro asked for was advice on the list, and while no one is forcing you to use Alaitoc you would find it very hard to argue that it is not the better option in nearly all cases for the reasons I outlined in my post above.

There are some cases where it doesn't provide any benefit/less benifit such as against things like Dark Reapers, Hemlocks, and flamers and against people who can close the gap really fast. There are also a lot more cases where the other traits do not benefit.

If you don't like being advised to make changes to a list with reasons for the changes all fairly well explained then a thread where someone is asking for list advice is probably not for you.

3
I have changed my thinking on this only just recently myself after reading a pretty in-depth discussion between The Mattler and Abusepuppy on a 3++ Is the New Black website. I don't see the value in running your army as a mixed group of craft-worlds.

If you were to run all three of your detachments as Alaitoc you would lose the following bonuses:
  • Biel- Tan warlord trait - you don't really have a good target unit for that warlord trait anyway
  • Biel-Tan re-roll ones for Shuriken weapons, if you change it to Alaitoc then your Autach can buff your dire avengers for the same buff without having to take a sub-par warlord trait.
  • Leadership bonus for Biel-Tan aspects. You have minimum squads, by the time the leadership matters even without the +1 the squad is basically dead anyway.
  • Saim-Hann reroll charges for you warlord and the shining spears - you might make a few less charges, but you shining spears are more likely to actually be alive to make those charges
  • Novalance Relic - It's good but the cost of taking it (1 detachment as Saim-Hann) is not worth it

Other suggestions I have:
  • Drop Maugen Ra for an Autach with Swooping Hawk wings + Reaper Launcher. This way if you really need you can have the Autach sit back with your reapers, although I would suggest running him up with the dire avengers instead. You don't really need the reroll ones with the Dark Reapers because they are all about the exarchs with tempast launcher, who reroll ones anyway but you do have the option to leave your Autach back there anyway.
  • Secondly you have not a lot of capacity to deal with big tough things, but have a lot of horde killing capacity. I would change your dark reapers to 3 units of 3 with tempest launcher exarchs, + 1 group of 10 with missile launcher exarch. You should have the left over points from dropping Maugen Ra for an Autach. I would then give your farseer, guide + doom and put him on babysitting duties. This also allows you way better use of forewarning with 10 reapers, which is amazing.
  • You could re-arrange your detachments to get 2 Battalions which would give you 9 CP instead of 8

4
I don't have the book with me at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that you can't webway strike the Avatar. It is restricted to infantry or bikers.

5
Discussion: Eldar / List Advice
« on: January 04, 2018, 11:19:44 PM »
Hi all,

I am looking for some feedback on the following list:

Battalion - Alaitoc
Farseer
Spiritseer

Rangers x 5
Rangers x 5
Dire Avengers x 5

Dark Reapers x 10 - Exarch AML

Hemlock

Battalion - Alaitoc
Farseer
Spiritseer

Rangers x 5
Rangers x 5
Dire Avengers x 5

6 Swooping Hawks - exarch with Hawk's Talon

Dark Reapers x 3 - Exarch Tempast Launcher
Dark Reapers x 3 - Exarch Tempast Launcher

Hemlock

Outrider - Saim-Hann??
Autach Skyrunner w/ Reaper Launcher, Laser Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapults

3 Shining Spears - exarch w/ star lance
3 Shining Spears - exarch w/ star lance
6 Swooping Hawks - exarch with Hawk's Talon

This army is aimed at playing the ITC champions missions.

A few thoughts I had:

Outrider detachment Saim-Hann vs Alaitoc. As Saim-Hann the Autach can take the Novalance, he can move and shoot his reaper launcher without -1 to hit and he and the shining spears can all re-roll the charges. The disadvantage is no -1 to hit them all, and the Autach can not provide re-rolls to the rest of the army.

Should I take the Autach at all? If I downgrade him to a spiritseer I can take a 3rd squad of 3 dark reapers with tempest launcher but I lose, the possibility of regaining a couple of command points as well as the clean up / assault deterrence.

Is the second Farseer worth it? The first one is there to babysit the large group of reapers for forewarning as well as guide and doom. The second one I intended to run as a more aggressive. Give him either the Falchou's wing or the Alaitoc deepstrike relic along with Executioner and Mind war or doom depending on what needs to die. He could be a great character assassin or dish out a large number of mortal wounds on some key targets. Is this worth the 100 points though, and the potential for giving away a fairly easy secondary objective point. If I dropping the characters to Farseer + 4 Spirit-seers I would have extra points to be able to take a 3rd squad of dark reapers as well as some extra hawks.

6
Discussion: Eldar / Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« on: December 22, 2017, 08:42:08 PM »
I would personally run the wraithknight as Alaitoc too, it is just that much better than all of the other craftworlds for the majority of units particularly a long range unit like the wraithknight.

I would run the dire avenger exarchs with 2 shuriken catapults, as the dire avengers will hardly even be getting in combat, and if they are they are probably going to die before they get to hit back. I would also only run 5 man squads as they are there more as objective takers and screening units.

There are two problems with you list:
You can't webway strike the wraithseer, the stratagem specifies only infantry which the wraithseer is not. Your wraithblades can't hope in the wave serpent as it is from a different craftworld. You can only hop in a transport from the same craftworld as the wave serpent entry specifies that it can transport up to 12 <craftworld> infantry models. Therefore when you specify your craftworld as Alaitoc, it can transport 12 <Alaitoc> infantry.

The changes I would make would be:
  • Drop the wraithseer
  • Drop the warlock from the battalion
  • Add another spiritseer to the vanguard detachment
  • Add another wave serpent to transport the second squad of wraiths
  • Add a spiritseer to the vanguard detachment for the compulsory HQ
  • Move the two serpents to the same detachment as the wraithblades
  • Give the serpents vectored engines
  • Change the Vanguard detachment from Iyanden to either Alaitoc or Ulthwe (Explained below)
  • Find some way to include your dark reapers as they are amazing

Your current vanguard detachment is getting very little use out of the Iyanden trait. The only benefit is the Psytronome relic, which is probably not worth the dedication of a whole detachment too for a one use relic. If that is what you really want to do, go for it but I would recommend changing it to either Ulthwe for keeping the wraiths alive longer once they are out of the transports, or Alaitoc for keeping the transports alive longer to get the wraiths to their target.

7
Discussion: Eldar / Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« on: December 19, 2017, 04:51:10 AM »
If I were you I would run something along the lines of this.

Superheavy Auxiliary Detachment
Wraithknight

Battallion
Farseer
Spiritseer
Avengers
Avengers
Avengers
Dark Reapers

Vanguard
Spiritseer
Wraithblades
Wraithblades
Bonesinger
Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent

Depending on exact load out and unit sizes you have about 100 points to play with using the above list according to my calculations. It is far from an optimised list but it is reasonable and would be competitive enough to have some fun games and appropriate for a local league.

I would run the wraithblades in wave serpents with 3 shuriken cannons, spirits stones and vectored engines rather then relying on deepstriking. If you really want to get your wraithblades in there, you can cloudstrike them in the wave serpents for less command points than you would use on webway strike.

I would highly recommend running all three detachments as Alaitoc rather than Iyandan, although an argument could be made to run the Vanguard as Ulthwe. Alaitoc is just better than Iyandan, Iyanden keeps your large models functional on lower wounds, Alaitoc keeps them functional by stopping them taking wounds and therefore spending longer on the top profile. Iyanden provides no benefit to resilience.

8
Discussion: Eldar / Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« on: December 18, 2017, 07:25:10 PM »
The issue is you are spending 450 points for the unit of wraithblades, 45 points for a spiritseer, your relic, 3 command points for deep striking them and 2? more command points for Supreme Disdain and Guided Wraithsight. All this on top of the fact that you have to be Iyanden which locks at least 1 detachment out of being Alaitoc, although if you did 3 spiritseers, the wraithblades and the wraithknight as a Iyanden Supreme Command Detachment this might not be too bad but that is a more than half your army there.

All of this investment for at best only a chance to work. It could all be made completely useless by someone who uses screens well.

To have you need the combination of some of the following actions to occur:
Make a 9" charge, OR
Have quicken go off AND make a 4" charge.

Quicken probability to cast: With deny - 44.8%, Without Deny - 58.3%
Chance to make 4" Charge: 91.7%
Chance to make 9" charge: 27.8%

Chance to get wraiths into combat after deep-striking: With deny -  68.9%, Without Deny 81.2%

It could be potentially worse than this too, this is assuming a standard psychic roll for both players, not including any rerolls or bonuses to the psychic phase. If you get unlucky and come against that then this strategy gets even worse.

To me while that sounds like a cool idea, the cost invested to do it, and to have it only work just over 2/3rds of the time makes it something I would never include in a competitive list. I would try it for friendly game but nothing else, it leaves too much to chance. If it was a smaller investment of points it might be worth it, I have thought about doing it with some harlequins but have yet to come up with something that I think is viable competitively.

9
Discussion: Eldar / Re: Using Aeldari in 8th Edition
« on: December 14, 2017, 11:02:45 PM »
Hey Guys.

1) creating a balanced list that can handle extremes (eg. Tank companies and hordes)
- I have always worked my best to create armies that can handle both hordes and mechanised. in the 2 games I played as Alaitoc with 4 - 5 Fire Prisms and a full squad of Dark Reapers, I seem to have my Prisms totally massacred by the Russes to the point I don't have anymore reliable anti-tank weapons.

2) Having enough CP while having  enough punch too
- I know it's fairly easy to create 10CP lists but the concern is that they don't pack enough of a punch. What would be a good way to balance things out?


To address point one:
This is more difficult just because of 8th edition, anything with enough strength and AP to get deal with russes is going to struggle to have the volume of firepower to deal with hordes. Things like fire prisms and dark reapers can deal with hordes, using their alternate fire modes but they do not do so points efficiently as they par for the flexibility. From my experience Eldar being a more elite army struggles to deal with hordes and still maintain any ability to handle tanks. My solution this far has been to accept that a horde army is going to be an uphill battle and use things such as fire prisms, dark reapers and wraithguard with D-Scythes to deal with them. In my local meta this works as there are some hordes, but not too many of them.

The second part of point one, if you are losing 4- 5 prisms in turn 1 to russes as Alaitoc, you either need to deploy more defensively or include more LOS blocking terrain on your tables. My deployment strategy for prisms is generally leave 1 wide open while deploying all the others out of LOS if possible. This allows me to use Lightning Fast Reflexes on this one for -2 to hit, and then link fire to allow the others ones to shoot, without moving. This is assuming there is a good target for linked fire, if not I generally move the prisms out to shoot and rely on the crystal targeting matrix.

To address points 2:
I agree that this is a problem Eldar players face. In my opinion our troops in this edition are all sub-par but are the increased command points worth taking the sub-par troops. My previous answer when I was playing Ynnari was no, but after the nerf to the Ynnari I am now running an Alaitoc army and I take 15 dire avengers to get a battalion and a total of 8 command points which I have found very valuable to have.

A very brief general review of my thoughts on our troops:
  • For me guardians, both defenders and storm have pretty much nothing going for them, they have no offensive ability due to short range, have no survive-ability and no utility and are not cheap enough to be able to treat them like pox walkers or guardsman as spammable and expendable.
  • Rangers have no offensive ability, but they do have utility due to their infiltrate ability and greater survive-ability than any of our other troops due to a 3+ in cover and -1 to hit.
  • Dire avengers have both more offensive capability than both the rangers and guardians, and are between the guardians and rangers in survive-ability but have no utility.
What also needs to be considered is that the rangers and dire avengers are both significantly more expensive than the guardians but do come in smaller squad sizes. I am trialling dire avengers at the moment, as while I believe that the rangers are probably the superior choice in a vacuum, the dire avengers help me with some additional anti infantry fire to help solve the problems from point 1.

I am attempting to work out a method to do some mathhammer on whether or not the troops are worth taking to get some more command points. It is hard to quantify the value of a command point though as well as what metrics I should use to determine the loss in value of taking troops over other things.

10
Discussion: Eldar / Re: Seeking some advice on Eldar
« on: December 11, 2017, 07:26:06 PM »
Dark Reapers are always a great addition to any force, although don't really fit the mobile hit and run style. If you are after the mobile hit and run side of DE does that mean you want everything in vehicles or on Jetbikes? It would help if you gave an idea of what you were intending on bringing for the DE side of your army and how much Eldar you were looking to add.

I have seen a DE army recently combine very well with a detachment of harlequins as they fit the mobile hit and run side a bit better than the Eldar in my opinion. I'll be possibly playing against this guy in a tournament this weekend so I will let you know how his army goes. From memory his army is venoms + harlequins in starweavers + 3 Ravangers.

11
When you say linked prisms, are you referring to the Linked Fire strategem which gives them rerolls? Also does this include them firing twice with pulsed laser discharge?

12
Quote
This table is here mainly to demonstrate a principle that new players sometimes have trouble understanding: cost and durability are inversely proportional to one another.
Yes, the number of times I have had to explain this.

Great post, hopefully I will have a chance to do some more soon when I get some time off work.

13
Discussion: Eldar / Re: Ynnari Strategies Post Nerf
« on: November 20, 2017, 08:16:19 PM »
During 7th edition, at a large tournament (AdeptiCon), the following issue arose due to the mechanical instability inherent in the SfD/Soulburst rules: During DEPLOYMENT (so, pre-game), a Genestealer Cult unit deploying in accordance with its quirky rules destroyed an Ynnari unit that was within 7" of a Wraithknight. The Ynnari player wanted to Charge during Deployment...at which point the game breaks. I suppose you don't have to arrive at the same conclusion that I arrived at, which is that SfD/Soulburst was not properly described (parameters/limitations/triggers/conditionals) as written.

I agree, in 7th edition it was fairly unclear, and even in 8th edition at first it was unclear. Pre-nerf 8th edition though, I thought  it was actually very clear when you got to soulburst and what you got to do. The only people that had problems were those that hadn't read the rules properly. Admittedly you did have to go to about 3 different places to get all those rules, but they were there and it was quite clear.

To me this is not a justification for the nerf even if it was very unclear. It could be fixed with some clarification, which is what they have done since 8th edition launched.

14
Discussion: Eldar / Re: Ynnari Strategies Post Nerf
« on: November 17, 2017, 11:05:48 PM »
so let me get this right. Since you can only do (1) of the 4 strength from death powers. You are better taking a patrol detachment with Yvaine , cheap troop and wraithguard, run them up in a wave serpent. Hop out, and you get to shoot normally first once, kill a unit, use strength from death again, to shoot again. Then pretty much thats it a turn. As long as its a wrathguard type unit thats probably still ok, but you just cant do it army wide anymore.

am i correct?

Not quite, with the FAQ you are now limited to one of each soulburst action in your turn, therefore you can soulburst up to 5 times but you can only do each of the allowed actions once. So one soulburst and shoot, one soulburst and move, one soulburst and fight, one soulburst and psychic power, one soulburst and charge.

The out-of-phase actions mechanic was problematic in more than one way, you can expect any future iteration of SfD to NOT allow for acting in the opponent's turn--or maybe just once, for CPs, like an intercept Stratagem or something. This part of the nerf hurts, and it is a massive correction, but it's necessary.
Why do you think this correction was necessary? To me it was completely unnecessary, both on the internet and locally where I play I saw very little complaint about soulburst. Yea sure if you were able to set up a nice combo then it could destroy half of someones army, but there is so many of those combos in this game that this one doesn't feel any worse than.

15
Discussion: Eldar / Ynnari Strategies Post Nerf
« on: November 17, 2017, 02:48:14 AM »
I think salty is an understatement at the moment. I have played exclusively Ynnari since they came out as they really closely represented my view of the Eldar(Aeldari) race as a whole and this nerf has in my opinion completely gutted them as a faction. However complaining on the internet isn't going to get me anywhere so I thought I would ask you guys your thoughts on the Ynnari after we rolled a 1 to save against the nerf bat.

Will you still use them?
If you are using them, how are you using them?
What are you changing from how you previously ran them?

My thoughts are that yes they can still be used, but more as an add-on to a craftworld army rather than as an army of their own. I am thinking at this point in time I will run the Yncarne + 10 wraithguard (D-scythes, single squad) + whatever else I need to make up my detachment. I think the key with Ynnari now will be running large squads to get the most out of limited soul bursts. The problem with running a large wraithguard squad with D-Sccythes is how to get them to the enemy. They can't take a serpent and they probably won't survive the walk across the board so that leaves webway strike. The only option I can see is dropping them in and attempting to cast quicken on them to get them in range, but relying on a WC7 power to go off for my 450 point unit to be able to do something isn't an idea I really relish.

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