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Discussion: Eldar / Re: List Advice
« Last post by Chmmr_X on January 15, 2018, 09:53:45 PM »
I find that running the spears as Saim Hann is better than Alaitoc. If you intend to be aggressive with them, Alaitoc may not be very useful because you intend to charge in with your Shining Spears, making your -1 to hit rather redundant. The most it will help is probably in the turn 1 alpha strike department.

As for Swooping Hawks, I am not a big fan of it for the simple reason that I the majority of armies out there are T4 and you will require a 5+ to wound them. Assault 4 is quite something though but I guess this comes down to a matter of preference. I'd personally prefer more shining spears or a bigger squad of them. Having too small will limit their effectiveness.

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Discussion: Eldar / Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« Last post by Exmortis66 on January 15, 2018, 09:22:37 PM »
So I run a very similar list to your original idea.  My army is Fun... for me!

It breaks down quite simply as this

Iyanden Vanguard

Spiritseer - Psytronome - Protect

Spirit Seer - Conceal

10 Wraithblade - Ghostaxe/Shield

5 Wraithblade - Ghostaxe/Shield

5 Wraithblade - Sword

5 Wraithblade - Sword

5 Wraithblade - Sword


Iyanden Spearhead

Autarch

Wraithlord - Ghostglaive - Brightlance - Flamers

Wraithlord - Ghostglaive - AML - Flamers

Wraithlord - Ghostglaive - AML - Flamers


Seems fairly basic at a glance, but it is deceptivly tough.  This is where Iyanden really shine as an attribute.  With such a small army, the inability to lose more then 1 model is incredibly strong, especially with the Chaos Meta applying massive modifiers to units in the Morale phase of the game now, you dont want to be losing 3 - 4 models because you lost 1 Wraith in a combat phase.  Secondly with 3 Wraithlords in the list, the added "Toughness" from the Attribute keeps them alive longer.  Running Alaitoc on them, protects them for a certain period of time, but your aim is to be within 12" as soon as possible.

Basic tactics for the list are... basic.  Running the 10 man Axeguard with the spirit seer through the Webway - predictable, but that's good.  Be Predictable, it will either force your opponent to invest an enormous amount of firepower into the Axeguard, and away from your Swordguard and Swordlords, OR, they ignore it (move away, fire at it half heatedly etc) which is ill advised.  Running Protect over Quicken increases their survivability massively.  using Supreme Disdain is good, but as they are already getting 60 attacks on the charge, it's better they make it. 

This list has 5 cp at its disposal, and I almost never have any left after my first turn, but by then, you are already in a position to cause massive amounts of damage and cause disruptions for the rest of the game. 

Webway Strike - 3 CP
Guided Wraithsight - 1 CP
Rerolling a charge dice - 1CP

The aim is not to get into combat (But if you do, mega win) The aim is to put a unit out there, that is so dangerous, so potent, and so incredibly tough, your opponent has no choice but to commit, and if they do, they need to commit hard - very hard.  Having a 2+ 3++ on a 30 wound, toughness 6 unit is rediculous.  Adding in the benifit of being better then almost every "Combat" unit in the game, takes away up to half of your opponents effectivness against them - they will almost always out perform the enemy in melee.

Like everything though, there is always cons to this.  Overwhelming firepower from Aggressors, Tau Burst suits, Baneblades, Smite Spam (pre beta smite), And really anything that causes Mortal Wounds with additional effects hurt you.  The Psytronome aswell (But the pro faaaaaar out weights the con). 

Your biggest weakness is in the Swordguard - not having the invul saves make them a prime target when your opponent realizes that he's just throwing snowballs at a brick wall expecting to knock it down.  When that happens, you have 2 options.  Pressure harder by throwing them headlong into the fray and just try and out muscle (Which they are fairly good at) or Use them a little more proactively by putting out bait units to soak up the incoming fire and move your Swordlords in to back up the remaining 2 units of Swordguard - effectively pushing your main front (The Axguard were never meant to be used as an advanced hit, always to be sacrificed).  The second unit of Axeguard can be deployed (with a bit of hindsight) directly behind where you intend to Webway the 10 man - they will eventually fall) so having that 5 man take its place when the inevitably happens is a back breaker for your enemy - they should've already taken massive casualties from the initial strike.

Thirdly and most importantly - when it comes to objectives  being such a small elite army (model wise) means you need to pressure them as early as possibly, keep them in their deployment, as busy as possible and use your second spirit seer/autarch close to them.  You need to have the mentality of "I must table them to win" because lets face it - you knida do.  Having a couple of units of Swordguard, and maybe a Swordlord running around on objective duty is all well and good - but with infiltrators and very fast moving fly/bike units doing the same - you are out performed in that department, so you need to pick your targets wisely.  Don't put a Swordguard unit out there chasing a unit of Aledari Jetbikes who are capturing objectives... use your Wraithlords/Wraithknight to hunt them down... 3" movement distance can make all the difference.  Secondly and most importantly, if you do commit them - don't be affraid to break them from the chase if a target presents itself.  A unit dead is a unit that can't capture objectives.  It's really that simple.

Now there will be people out there that counter you at every turn, but remember this.  If you aren't having fun - then why are you playing?
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Discussion: Dark Angels / Re: Chapter Tactics
« Last post by Nightwing7x on January 14, 2018, 11:17:15 AM »
While Deathwing did get hit pretty hard, on there own, which is a shame because I love them. The new DA are quite the force. I made a 2k point list with the release of the new book and it is about 80% greenwing, then 10% Ravenwing and Deathwing. I have not lost with it yet. My most common opponent, Deathguard, always try to drop typhus with some deathshroud by my back line, which they always manage to get the charge off, because of course they do. However with the new auspex scans, my opponent now dreads my backline, which has plasma cannon devs.

Another friend of mine, who plays tau, hates my devs as well, because he to dropped them by my 3 damage plasma devs, once. Then my deathguard friend also plays grey knights, and he always uses Draigo with paladins in deepstrike, which my devs now destroy, and paladins only can get a 5+ invuln sooooooo yeah.

Overall I love the new book, though IMO, Azrael breaks the internal balance of the book. I have barely any reason not to take him in the list, unless I want it to be fluffy. 
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Discussion: Sisters Of Battle / Re: List i'm taking tomorrow
« Last post by Leftovers44 on January 13, 2018, 02:21:17 PM »
Seems like a pretty solid all around list, I am a little personally unsure about the effectiveness of exorcists on the table  but I haven't used them myself.

At worse you maybe have to few Imagifiers and could possibly get one back into the list by dropping the Blade of Admonition and the inferno pistols.

Dominions scouting up with meltas might not be super effective if they have masses of infantry without wounds spilling over from their D6 Damage. But you can just not scout them into danger close horde lines and just try and trade across the table with heavy bolter and storm bolter combined fire to soften them up.

Something kind of goes for the Seraphim almost, mostly because of the short range of their bolt pistols leaving them in counter charge/charge range of most things to be effective. This can be mitigated by deepstriking them in the right spot or just moving them the right way to get a good first shooting in before your heavy bolters light up the rest of the horde.

Besides that I don't see to many major changes that need to be made to your list.
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Discussion: Sisters Of Battle / Re: List i'm taking tomorrow
« Last post by mcphro on January 12, 2018, 09:04:40 PM »
Ive decided to drop one retributer squad and imagifier and add a forth exorsist. I feel i need more to deal with vehicles in my meta.
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Discussion: Sisters Of Battle / Cannoness Bomb - Thoughts?
« Last post by mcphro on January 12, 2018, 06:37:53 AM »
I've seen this one getting around on the internet, but it turns out that a cannoness kitted out with a Eviscerator and an inferno pistol is 66 points. A REALLY good price for what you get. In addition to this, dont forget all the ways to buff them.

Add a priest and a Hospitaller to a unit of 4 Cannonness and you have the makings of an really interesting unit. (Add a unit of Celestians and they actually have a role to play).

All this fits with a unit of Dominions so they can get a lift up the field REALLY quickly.

Cannonness - Inferno pistol + Eviscorator
Cannonness - Inferno pistol + Eviscorator
Cannonness - Inferno pistol + Eviscorator
Cannonness - Inferno pistol + Eviscorator
Minisorum Priest
Hospitaller

What do you get?

Positives
----------
WS/BS 2+ (But hits with the Eviscerator on 3's)
5 attacks each instead of 4 due to the Priest
Can revive a Canonness back to 1 wound if it has even been slain
Each individual model has 5 wounds.. 2 more than Grey knight paladins or Custodes
All weapons reroll hits of 1
NONE of the characters can be targetted if they are with other units. NOW add Celestines to tank ANY wounds on a 2+.
66 x 4 + 30 + 35 = 329 points for the unit.
20 attacks hitting on 3's at Str 6, AP -4, D3 Damage each - all rerolling 1's to hit.
You could also add a unit of Crusaders to tank wounds in front with their 3++ inv save too.

Negatives
-----------
Yes you have issues with Toughness 3, but you also have a 6+ Inv save
Custodes have T5 with 2+ save and 3++ Invun save due to Storm shield - very durable.
= 285 points for 5 Custodians = 15 wounds


Thoughts???
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Discussion: Sisters Of Battle / List i'm taking tomorrow
« Last post by mcphro on January 12, 2018, 06:18:26 AM »
I thought id post my list that im taking tomorrow.

Battalion
----------
HQ
---
Canonness - with power sword + blade of admonition and storm bolter
Celestine + 2 gemini

Troops
-------
Battle Sister Squad - Heavy Bolter + 2 Storm bolters
Battle Sister Squad - Heavy Bolter + 2 Storm bolters
Battle Sister Squad - Heavy Bolter + 2 Storm bolters

Elites
------
Imagifier

Fast Attack
------------
Dominion Squad - 5 meltas
Dominion Squad - 5 meltas
Seraphim Squad - Plasma pistol + 2 Inferno pistols

Heavy Support
-----------------
Retributer - Storm Bolter + 4 heavy bolters

Dedicated Transport
-----------------------
Repressor with 2 storm bolters
Repressor with 2 storm bolters

Spearhead Detachment
---------------------------
Cannoness - with chainsword and stormbolter

Elites
------
Imagifier
Imagifier

Heavy Support
-----------------
Exorcist with storm bolter
Exorcist with storm bolter
Exorcist with storm bolter
Retributer - Storm Bolter + 4 heavy bolters
Retributer - Storm Bolter + 4 heavy bolters
Retributer - Storm Bolter + 4 heavy bolters


Notes:
I agonised over this list swapping in everything from grey knights, assassins and even inquisition... but in the end settled on this. Its my usual...

Back field
-------------
4 x Retributer squads with heavy bolters with 3 imagifers and 3 exorcists are the long range fire support. With each retributer squad able to pump out upto 24 shots with reroll 1's on a good turn (im actually happy to sacrifice my army AOF, if the situation calls for it (e.g. fighting an ork horde). If I roll well, its actually possible to get 96 Str 5, 1-, Dmg 1 Heavy bolter shots all rerolling 1's - YES PLEASE!

This is in addition to the 3 sister squads with another heavy bolter in each.

The 3 Exorcists are another link, all rerolling 1's due to the second cannoness targetting the obvious threats. You get luck with them. Should on average get 9 - 12 shots a turn with them.

Front field
------------
This in the 2 repressors with dominion squads with the Seraphim squad and Celestine all attacking the same part of the line, depending on needs. If im the one being assaulted, they will be a fast reactionary force to deal with the incomming.

thoughts?

I'll let you know how I go.

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Discussion: THE LIST / 1000p Raven Guard custom mission list
« Last post by Commisar Aecun on January 11, 2018, 10:36:13 AM »
Hi I'm looking for some feedback on a list I've built for the following mission:

Raid (suggested 100-1500p):
The defending player sets up d6 objectives (supply crates or barrels) to a minimum of 3 (a roll of 1 or 2 counts as 3) at least 6 from the table edge and 9 from each other. Objectives can be raided by infantry units by forfeiting shooting, charging and fighting during a turn. At the end of turn 5, count the amount of objectives raided. (the objectives give resources for a campaign)


I'll be going up against Iron hands and so far I've built the following list:

Vanguard Detachment 1000p
[HQ] Captain - bolt pistol and powersword 78p

[Troops] Scout squad - Scout sargeant, 6 scouts with sniper rifles and camo cloaks. 126p

[Elites] Contemptor Dreadnought - close combat weapon and kheres assault canon 165p
sternguard veteran squad - 5 marines with special issue bolt guns 90p
tartaros terminator squad - 5 terminators with power fists, grenade harness and reaper autocannon
fw relic sicaran venator tank destroyer - heavy bolter and 2 sponsor lascannons 230p

[Fast Attack] Assault Squad - 5 marines with jump packs, chainswords and bolt pistols 80p

Thanks in advance.

Note: I don't have acces to any rhino's (yet)
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Discussion: Eldar / Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Last post by Odras on January 10, 2018, 09:14:57 PM »
I agree that the alaitoc attribute is very useful for units like dark reapers and fire prisms that they can stay at the backfield and they have the range to exploit it but for the other units it is not the best attribute.

So I want your advice. At the list with the wraithlords, the walkers and the wraithknight a few posts below which is the best craftworld for the wraithknight? the -1 to hit rolls? the 6+ fnp? or the iyanden attribute? I cannot decide and my question is sincere, I don't want to become ironic or anything.

I want to start by apologising, I think my last post was too aggressive I misinterpreted what you had posted because on a different forum I spent a lot of time analysing and providing some commentary on someones list only to be abused because I didn't tell them what they wanted to hear.

To answer your first few points:

People were playing Ynnari because soulburst was broken (and arguably is still good, I might post up some thoughts on this later). The 6+ FNP from the Yncarne was an asset yes, but it was not the reason people were playing Ynnari. People were playing Ynnari for those situations where you have just shot three quarters of your army and wiped out a third of theirs and you say "ok that's the end of my psychic phase, now on to shooting". If you are talking about the lists where the Yncarne FNP was given to very large number of razorwing flocks, that was more an issue with the razorwing flocks being extremely good at the time rather than the FNP being good. This can be seen by the fact that this tactic is not used anymore. This is the only example of the FNP being the Yncarne's primary purpose I can think of / have seen.

With respect to the Harlequins and their -1, it was and still is that good. Neither the Mirage Launchers or the Alaitoc bonus are game breaking but they do put craftworlds and harlequins in a unique position to be very resilient against an alpha strike. My opinion on why Alaitoc has seemed to be much more hyped than the harlequins one was because Alaitoc has a lot more potential for stacking the negative to hit modifiers, and the Craftworlds codex is just in a better place. The index harlequins with the were bad and with the -1 to hit became ok. Alaitoc craftworld attribute takes a codex that is pretty good, and makes it really frustrating for opponents who are used to alphastriking their way to victory against most lists.

Also remember that I am not necessarily claiming that the Alaitoc trait is game-breaking, (although it is in certain situations), I am just claiming that it is the best choice of the 5 options we get and that in most cases, taking even one of your detachments as something else is a weaker choice for your list.

In responding to your point on the use of the Saim-Hann trait for melee-centric armies or detachments I was in the same boat as you recently and only just changed my mind. If you look at one of the threads I posted lower I asked specifically that question, Saim-Hann vs Alaitoc. I would encourage you to have a look at this article, specifically the comments section where The Mattler and Abusepuppy have a fairly lengthy discussion on the exact same topic. This was the conversation that changed my mind on the topic. I highly suggest people have a read of the whole thing as these two both have some very insightful opinions on how to best run Eldar.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/12/eldar-codex-review-special-rules/#IDComment1055628011.

A quick summary of the above discussion with respect to Saim-Hann. Re-rolling charges, the Novalance, and the Warriors of the raging winds stratagem is really good for units like shining spears and banshees, but are not worth the investment of a whole detachment to take.

To address your comment on opinions of each of the attributes I thought I would state my opinion of each of them, including their relevant warlord traits, relics and stratagems because considering them on their own is not really that useful.

Bad Craftworlds
Biel-Tan: Attribute does what an Autach does but only for Shuriken weapons. Find the points to take an Autach and also get whichever other bonus you choose. Have to mention their warlord trait, for being pretty much the best on in the game, but still not worth the opportunity cost for taking a whole detachment as Beil Tan and making one of them your warlord. None of their relics or stratagems are anything to make them worth taking.

Iyanden: I see the Iyanden trait as a big trap. Yes it is good to keep things more effective at lower wounds, but it is better to keep them effective for longer by preventing them from taking the wounds in the first place through either the Alaitoc or Ulthwe traits. The morale thing is good but most of the eldar armies I see are running smaller squads most of the time and morale just isn't a problem. The Psytronome is good, but much like the Biel-Tan warlord trait, one good thing is not worth the opportunity cost of taking a whole detachment as Iyanden.

Ok Craftworlds
Ulthwe: Ulthwe trait is good, but the biggest problem with it is that it is doing the same thing (Survivability) but not as good as Alaitoc. A -1 to hit is better at keeping things alive in nearly all situations than the 6+ FNP. A lot of people claim that the Ulthwe trait is always on whereas the Alaitoc trait only applies further away from 12" but that is not really true. There are a lot of situations where the 6+ is worth so little it is negligible. Think about a situation where something with 2 damage guns (like dark reapers) is shooting at single wound targets. The Ulthwe trait will only save 1 in 36 of those models who fail their save, as they have to roll a double 6 to prevent the damage from both wounds. On top of this, there is the units who already have FNP saves for which the trait does nothing. I'm not trying to say that Alaitoc is always effective either, but both of the traits have times when they don't apply. The bonus for Alaitoc trait I find is the ability for you to manipulate the movement of your opponent. I have often found my opponents make mistakes with their positioning because they are too concerned with trying to circumvent the Alaitoc trait. Ulthwe warlord trait is reasonable as more command points are always good, and if you are using guardians the stratagem is also pretty good which is part of the reason I rate Ulthwe OK and not bad like Iyanden and Biel-Tan.

Saim-Hann: I will be brief since I touched on it above. Saim-Hann is good, trait, relic and stratagem are all fantastic but the problem is they are only worth it for a small portion of the eldar army and the cost of taking a whole detachment as them is generally not worth it. This is definitely arguable though and chosing a Saim-Hann detachment of banshees or shining spears with an autach with novalance might be worth it. Additionally you have to consider that Alaitoc banshees and spears will be alive longer to make more charges when comparing that with the Saim-Hann benefit of re-rolling the charge distance. I would be interested to hear anyone else's opinions on this though.

Good Craftworld:
Alaitoc: Negatives to hit are just that good, they along with fantastic deep strike defence make craftworld Eldar very resilient to the alpha strike which I find very prevalent in the meta at the moment. Additionally they allow me to comfortable take the second turn, which lets me not care about having a large number of units and gives the benefit of going second which is good for most missions I play. On top of this they have a great relic, and a stratagem which while situational, helps arguably the strongest troops choice in our army be very difficult to remove from an objective at a key moment in the game. To me Eldar's weakness is defence, they go down to someone farting in their direction. The Alaitoc trait is the best way to shore that up.

Here is the list I am assuming that you are talking about:

Alaitoc battalion

spiritseer
spiritseer

5 dire avengers with diresword exarch
5 dire avengers with diresword exarch
5 dire avengers with double shuriken exarch

hemlock wraithfighter, jinx

wave serpent, spirit stones,vectored engines shuriken cannons (for two units avengers)

vyper, 2x shuriken cannons
vyper, 2x shuriken cannons

warwalker, brightlance, shuriken cannon
warwalker, brightlance, shuriken cannon
warwalker, brightlance, shuriken cannon

Alaitoc supreme detachment

Wraithknight, heavy wraithcannons

Iyanden spearhead

spiritseer

Wraithlord,2x shuriken catapults, 2x shuriken cannons
Wraithlord,2x shuriken catapults, 2x shuriken cannons
Wraithlord,2x shuriken catapults, 2x shuriken cannons

funny list! I am going to test it! I am not sure if it going to be an easy win for the opponent or it is going to be very difficult for the opponent to deal with all these high toughness/wounds models.

To answer your question on which trait is best for the wraithknight, I think it is Alaitoc. As I explained above, I believe that the Iyanden trait is a trap, as keeping the knight effective by preventing wounds is better than it being effective at lower wounds. In this situation Ulthwe is close to Alaitoc, however I still believe Alaitoc has the edge. With the heavy wraithcannons, you want to stand back and shoot. Very few targets are going to want to come within 12" for fear of being charged by the knight. I give the edge to Alaitoc just because of the fact that -1 to be hit is just better than a chance to ignore some damage.

For all the reasons outlined above, I would suggest changing the wraithlord detachment too.
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Discussion: Eldar / Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Last post by Nebuchadnezzar on January 10, 2018, 03:17:21 AM »
There are some attributes that I like and some that I don't. Every opinion is subjective, even my own of course. I agree with you about the biel-tan attributes but not about the Saim-Hann. When you have a close combat army with the movement of an eldar army or more specific that of shining spears it is obvious that you have to get close to the enemy so you can't use the alaitoc attribute. Before the new codex I was playing mostly harlequins. The Skyweavers and the starweavers have the same attribute and it was not THAT good. It is good but not game-changing or anything. In addition, before the ynnari nerf, that nearly everyone was playing ynnari, the 6+ fnp that the Yncarne could give to nearby units was something really game-changing sometimes, so why not Ulthwe?

I agree that the alaitoc attribute is very useful for units like dark reapers and fire prisms that they can stay at the backfield and they have the range to exploit it but for the other units it is not the best attribute.

So I want your advice. At the list with the wraithlords, the walkers and the wraithknight a few posts below which is the best craftworld for the wraithknight? the -1 to hit rolls? the 6+ fnp? or the iyanden attribute? I cannot decide and my question is sincere, I don't want to become ironic or anything.
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