Author Topic: Wraith list. Help please!!!!  (Read 4437 times)

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Online Nebuchadnezzar

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Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« on: December 18, 2017, 06:45:17 AM »
so the list I want to try because I bought recently a wraithknight...

Asurmen
3x 5 dire avengers with diresword exarch
( the backup units for objectives)

webway striking 1 unit of 10 wraithblades with axes
spiritseer with psytronome and quicken power. ( they deepstrike, move 5', charge and with the psytronome, the GUIDED WRAITHSIGHT and the SUPREME DISDAIN stratagems they have 60 attacks str7 ap -3 dmg d3 with reroll all failed hit rolls and extra attack at to hit rolls of 6)
(the unit that will keep the opponent busy enough for the wraithknight to survive and kill at its first turn a lot of bad, enemy units)

wraithlord with sword and flamers
bonesinger
wraithnight with 2 heavy wraithcannons and 2 starcannons

hemlock wraithfighter with horrify
crimson hunter

what do you think? is the wraithblades combo in the game as strong as it looks on the paper?

Plus,  I am thinking of droping the bonesinger and field a second hemlock instead of the crimson hunter and maybe a warlock or something but I am not sure....
I mastered the chaos in mind and soul.
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Offline mcphro

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Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2017, 08:25:28 AM »
I love the idea. I think when I watch a lot of games, it all depends on how well people bubblewrap their armies. Im finding that more balanced armies have some sort of cheap wrap.

Lately, I'm buying 15 - 20 Storm Guardians with 2-3 ranger squads. When you place than out in a 15-20 man string on your deployment line, then add 3 ranger squads 8" out from that (depending on terrain), and you shut down generally all deep striking units 90% of the time. Of course, the rest of your deployment matters to stop deep strikers IN your deployment zone, but all I'm saying is just to consider it.

Lets say you come in, burn your use once only effect on a 120 point squad of guardians, you've got a dangerous unit close to their army so at the very least it isn't wasted. But you also could lose 1/4 of your army right there if they counter and blow them away.

Now saying all that, by having them sit in reserve, they might come in next turn in turn 2 etc. But the turn they come in will hurt. And if they DONT have a bubble wrap, they are really going to hurt. Not only that, but having a tough resilient unit like that with a 4++ save is like having a huge unit of bulgrins in your deployment zone. If you can wipe out the unit and consolidate 3", you get to do it again all over again next turn and keep going. Do you consider a warlock on a bike (eww I know), but with protect as well perhaps???

As always, I say try it. It'll be fun and I wait to see how you sent to report back how it performs.


-my 2 cents

Online Nebuchadnezzar

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Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2017, 10:32:49 AM »
I see what you say. I have to be careful. My main idea was to terrify the opponent with this big shoots consuming unit to keep my wraithknight alive. I played a game the other day against a necron player. Charging with one big unit was enough for him because he destroyed all my screening units in one round. I'll test it and I will report back to you! Thanks mcphro.

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Online Odras

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Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2017, 07:25:10 PM »
The issue is you are spending 450 points for the unit of wraithblades, 45 points for a spiritseer, your relic, 3 command points for deep striking them and 2? more command points for Supreme Disdain and Guided Wraithsight. All this on top of the fact that you have to be Iyanden which locks at least 1 detachment out of being Alaitoc, although if you did 3 spiritseers, the wraithblades and the wraithknight as a Iyanden Supreme Command Detachment this might not be too bad but that is a more than half your army there.

All of this investment for at best only a chance to work. It could all be made completely useless by someone who uses screens well.

To have you need the combination of some of the following actions to occur:
Make a 9" charge, OR
Have quicken go off AND make a 4" charge.

Quicken probability to cast: With deny - 44.8%, Without Deny - 58.3%
Chance to make 4" Charge: 91.7%
Chance to make 9" charge: 27.8%

Chance to get wraiths into combat after deep-striking: With deny -  68.9%, Without Deny 81.2%

It could be potentially worse than this too, this is assuming a standard psychic roll for both players, not including any rerolls or bonuses to the psychic phase. If you get unlucky and come against that then this strategy gets even worse.

To me while that sounds like a cool idea, the cost invested to do it, and to have it only work just over 2/3rds of the time makes it something I would never include in a competitive list. I would try it for friendly game but nothing else, it leaves too much to chance. If it was a smaller investment of points it might be worth it, I have thought about doing it with some harlequins but have yet to come up with something that I think is viable competitively.

Online Nebuchadnezzar

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Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2017, 02:45:28 AM »
I can see your point. I will share with you my main idea so you can help me.

I have a wraithknight. I know that in this edition he is not the biggest badass of all but it's my first wraithknight and I want to field him.
The level at the local shop is not extremely competitive but neither simply casual.

So I want to field the wraithknight and I need to keep the opponent's attention elsewhere so my thought was to deepstrike units around him to confuse him.
The next step was to field an iyanden list and I have 10 wraithguards/blades, 1 wraithlord/seer, 2 spiritseers, 1 bonesinger, 2 hemlocks/crimson hunters, the wraithknight and many other units, but these are the iyanden specific models.
jetbikes
shining spears
guardians
avengers
warp spiders
wave serpents
fire prisms
vypers
farseers
scorpions
a unit of reapers
avatar
all the ynnari and a big army of harlequins are the other units for your info.

so how could I form my list to field a wraithknight?
I mastered the chaos in mind and soul.
I will kill you and with a beautiful laugh I will dance until I go mad.

Online Odras

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Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2017, 04:51:10 AM »
If I were you I would run something along the lines of this.

Superheavy Auxiliary Detachment
Wraithknight

Battallion
Farseer
Spiritseer
Avengers
Avengers
Avengers
Dark Reapers

Vanguard
Spiritseer
Wraithblades
Wraithblades
Bonesinger
Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent

Depending on exact load out and unit sizes you have about 100 points to play with using the above list according to my calculations. It is far from an optimised list but it is reasonable and would be competitive enough to have some fun games and appropriate for a local league.

I would run the wraithblades in wave serpents with 3 shuriken cannons, spirits stones and vectored engines rather then relying on deepstriking. If you really want to get your wraithblades in there, you can cloudstrike them in the wave serpents for less command points than you would use on webway strike.

I would highly recommend running all three detachments as Alaitoc rather than Iyandan, although an argument could be made to run the Vanguard as Ulthwe. Alaitoc is just better than Iyandan, Iyanden keeps your large models functional on lower wounds, Alaitoc keeps them functional by stopping them taking wounds and therefore spending longer on the top profile. Iyanden provides no benefit to resilience.

Online Nebuchadnezzar

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Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2017, 04:20:46 AM »
Alaitoc battalion

spiritseer quicken
spiritseer enhance
warlock conceal

6 dire avengers with diresword exarch
6 dire avengers with diresword exarch
6 dire avengers with diresword exarch
10 guardians with shuriken cannon platform

hemlock wraithfighter, jinx

wave serpent, spirit stones, shuriken cannons

supreme detachment

Wraithknight, heavy wraithcannons

Iyanden vangard

Wraithseer, D-cannon, psytronome

bonesinger
5 wraithblades, ghostswords
5 wraithblades, ghostaxes



webway striking 1 unit of wraithblades with swords and the wraithseer
the other unit of wraithblades is in the serpent with 2 spiritseers
the bonesinger and the warlock are at the backfield with wraithnight and the screening units

what do you think of this version of the list?
should I change the warlock with a farseer or change the guardian unit?
what craftworld fits to the wraithknight?
I mastered the chaos in mind and soul.
I will kill you and with a beautiful laugh I will dance until I go mad.

Online Odras

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Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2017, 08:42:08 PM »
I would personally run the wraithknight as Alaitoc too, it is just that much better than all of the other craftworlds for the majority of units particularly a long range unit like the wraithknight.

I would run the dire avenger exarchs with 2 shuriken catapults, as the dire avengers will hardly even be getting in combat, and if they are they are probably going to die before they get to hit back. I would also only run 5 man squads as they are there more as objective takers and screening units.

There are two problems with you list:
You can't webway strike the wraithseer, the stratagem specifies only infantry which the wraithseer is not. Your wraithblades can't hope in the wave serpent as it is from a different craftworld. You can only hop in a transport from the same craftworld as the wave serpent entry specifies that it can transport up to 12 <craftworld> infantry models. Therefore when you specify your craftworld as Alaitoc, it can transport 12 <Alaitoc> infantry.

The changes I would make would be:
  • Drop the wraithseer
  • Drop the warlock from the battalion
  • Add another spiritseer to the vanguard detachment
  • Add another wave serpent to transport the second squad of wraiths
  • Add a spiritseer to the vanguard detachment for the compulsory HQ
  • Move the two serpents to the same detachment as the wraithblades
  • Give the serpents vectored engines
  • Change the Vanguard detachment from Iyanden to either Alaitoc or Ulthwe (Explained below)
  • Find some way to include your dark reapers as they are amazing

Your current vanguard detachment is getting very little use out of the Iyanden trait. The only benefit is the Psytronome relic, which is probably not worth the dedication of a whole detachment too for a one use relic. If that is what you really want to do, go for it but I would recommend changing it to either Ulthwe for keeping the wraiths alive longer once they are out of the transports, or Alaitoc for keeping the transports alive longer to get the wraiths to their target.

Online Nebuchadnezzar

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Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2017, 05:45:06 PM »
Alaitoc battalion

spiritseer
spiritseer

5 dire avengers with 2catapults exarch
5 dire avengers with 2catapults exarch
5 dire avengers with 2catapults exarch

hemlock wraithfighter, jinx

wave serpent, spirit stones,  vectored engines, shuriken cannons
wave serpent, spirit stones,  vectored engines, shuriken cannons

3x dark reapers with exarch

supreme detachment

Wraithknight, heavy wraithcannons

Alaitoc vangard

Spiritseer warlord,  with the alaitoc relic

bonesinger
5 wraithblades, ghostswords
5 wraithblades, ghostaxes

1991pts

I mastered the chaos in mind and soul.
I will kill you and with a beautiful laugh I will dance until I go mad.

Online Nebuchadnezzar

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Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2017, 02:38:18 PM »
Just bought three war walkers,  two wraithlords( plus the one I already have)  and one vyper( plus the two I already have)!!
I mastered the chaos in mind and soul.
I will kill you and with a beautiful laugh I will dance until I go mad.

Online Nebuchadnezzar

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Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2017, 03:59:00 PM »
Alaitoc battalion

spiritseer
spiritseer

5 dire avengers with diresword exarch
5 dire avengers with diresword exarch
5 dire avengers with double shuriken exarch

hemlock wraithfighter, jinx

wave serpent, spirit stones,vectored engines shuriken cannons (for two units avengers)

vyper, 2x shuriken cannons
vyper, 2x shuriken cannons

warwalker, brightlance, shuriken cannon
warwalker, brightlance, shuriken cannon
warwalker, brightlance, shuriken cannon

Alaitoc supreme detachment

Wraithknight, heavy wraithcannons

Iyanden spearhead

spiritseer

Wraithlord,2x shuriken catapults, 2x shuriken cannons
Wraithlord,2x shuriken catapults, 2x shuriken cannons
Wraithlord,2x shuriken catapults, 2x shuriken cannons

funny list! I am going to test it! I am not sure if it going to be an easy win for the opponent or it is going to be very difficult for the opponent to deal with all these high toughness/wounds models.
I mastered the chaos in mind and soul.
I will kill you and with a beautiful laugh I will dance until I go mad.

Offline Exmortis66

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Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2018, 09:22:37 PM »
So I run a very similar list to your original idea.  My army is Fun... for me!

It breaks down quite simply as this

Iyanden Vanguard

Spiritseer - Psytronome - Protect

Spirit Seer - Conceal

10 Wraithblade - Ghostaxe/Shield

5 Wraithblade - Ghostaxe/Shield

5 Wraithblade - Sword

5 Wraithblade - Sword

5 Wraithblade - Sword


Iyanden Spearhead

Autarch

Wraithlord - Ghostglaive - Brightlance - Flamers

Wraithlord - Ghostglaive - AML - Flamers

Wraithlord - Ghostglaive - AML - Flamers


Seems fairly basic at a glance, but it is deceptivly tough.  This is where Iyanden really shine as an attribute.  With such a small army, the inability to lose more then 1 model is incredibly strong, especially with the Chaos Meta applying massive modifiers to units in the Morale phase of the game now, you dont want to be losing 3 - 4 models because you lost 1 Wraith in a combat phase.  Secondly with 3 Wraithlords in the list, the added "Toughness" from the Attribute keeps them alive longer.  Running Alaitoc on them, protects them for a certain period of time, but your aim is to be within 12" as soon as possible.

Basic tactics for the list are... basic.  Running the 10 man Axeguard with the spirit seer through the Webway - predictable, but that's good.  Be Predictable, it will either force your opponent to invest an enormous amount of firepower into the Axeguard, and away from your Swordguard and Swordlords, OR, they ignore it (move away, fire at it half heatedly etc) which is ill advised.  Running Protect over Quicken increases their survivability massively.  using Supreme Disdain is good, but as they are already getting 60 attacks on the charge, it's better they make it. 

This list has 5 cp at its disposal, and I almost never have any left after my first turn, but by then, you are already in a position to cause massive amounts of damage and cause disruptions for the rest of the game. 

Webway Strike - 3 CP
Guided Wraithsight - 1 CP
Rerolling a charge dice - 1CP

The aim is not to get into combat (But if you do, mega win) The aim is to put a unit out there, that is so dangerous, so potent, and so incredibly tough, your opponent has no choice but to commit, and if they do, they need to commit hard - very hard.  Having a 2+ 3++ on a 30 wound, toughness 6 unit is rediculous.  Adding in the benifit of being better then almost every "Combat" unit in the game, takes away up to half of your opponents effectivness against them - they will almost always out perform the enemy in melee.

Like everything though, there is always cons to this.  Overwhelming firepower from Aggressors, Tau Burst suits, Baneblades, Smite Spam (pre beta smite), And really anything that causes Mortal Wounds with additional effects hurt you.  The Psytronome aswell (But the pro faaaaaar out weights the con). 

Your biggest weakness is in the Swordguard - not having the invul saves make them a prime target when your opponent realizes that he's just throwing snowballs at a brick wall expecting to knock it down.  When that happens, you have 2 options.  Pressure harder by throwing them headlong into the fray and just try and out muscle (Which they are fairly good at) or Use them a little more proactively by putting out bait units to soak up the incoming fire and move your Swordlords in to back up the remaining 2 units of Swordguard - effectively pushing your main front (The Axguard were never meant to be used as an advanced hit, always to be sacrificed).  The second unit of Axeguard can be deployed (with a bit of hindsight) directly behind where you intend to Webway the 10 man - they will eventually fall) so having that 5 man take its place when the inevitably happens is a back breaker for your enemy - they should've already taken massive casualties from the initial strike.

Thirdly and most importantly - when it comes to objectives  being such a small elite army (model wise) means you need to pressure them as early as possibly, keep them in their deployment, as busy as possible and use your second spirit seer/autarch close to them.  You need to have the mentality of "I must table them to win" because lets face it - you knida do.  Having a couple of units of Swordguard, and maybe a Swordlord running around on objective duty is all well and good - but with infiltrators and very fast moving fly/bike units doing the same - you are out performed in that department, so you need to pick your targets wisely.  Don't put a Swordguard unit out there chasing a unit of Aledari Jetbikes who are capturing objectives... use your Wraithlords/Wraithknight to hunt them down... 3" movement distance can make all the difference.  Secondly and most importantly, if you do commit them - don't be affraid to break them from the chase if a target presents itself.  A unit dead is a unit that can't capture objectives.  It's really that simple.

Now there will be people out there that counter you at every turn, but remember this.  If you aren't having fun - then why are you playing?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 09:33:10 PM by Exmortis66 »

Online Nebuchadnezzar

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Re: Wraith list. Help please!!!!
« Reply #12 on: Today at 03:25:04 AM »
That's a very nice review! Thank you very much! Unfortunately I don't own so many wraithguards. Right now I am waiting for the Wraithknight to complete my list and I think that I will have him until the end of the week. Everything else is already in line as you can see!
I mastered the chaos in mind and soul.
I will kill you and with a beautiful laugh I will dance until I go mad.