Author Topic: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault  (Read 5879 times)

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Online Nebuchadnezzar

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2018, 03:17:21 AM »
There are some attributes that I like and some that I don't. Every opinion is subjective, even my own of course. I agree with you about the biel-tan attributes but not about the Saim-Hann. When you have a close combat army with the movement of an eldar army or more specific that of shining spears it is obvious that you have to get close to the enemy so you can't use the alaitoc attribute. Before the new codex I was playing mostly harlequins. The Skyweavers and the starweavers have the same attribute and it was not THAT good. It is good but not game-changing or anything. In addition, before the ynnari nerf, that nearly everyone was playing ynnari, the 6+ fnp that the Yncarne could give to nearby units was something really game-changing sometimes, so why not Ulthwe?

I agree that the alaitoc attribute is very useful for units like dark reapers and fire prisms that they can stay at the backfield and they have the range to exploit it but for the other units it is not the best attribute.

So I want your advice. At the list with the wraithlords, the walkers and the wraithknight a few posts below which is the best craftworld for the wraithknight? the -1 to hit rolls? the 6+ fnp? or the iyanden attribute? I cannot decide and my question is sincere, I don't want to become ironic or anything.
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Online Odras

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2018, 09:14:57 PM »
I agree that the alaitoc attribute is very useful for units like dark reapers and fire prisms that they can stay at the backfield and they have the range to exploit it but for the other units it is not the best attribute.

So I want your advice. At the list with the wraithlords, the walkers and the wraithknight a few posts below which is the best craftworld for the wraithknight? the -1 to hit rolls? the 6+ fnp? or the iyanden attribute? I cannot decide and my question is sincere, I don't want to become ironic or anything.

I want to start by apologising, I think my last post was too aggressive I misinterpreted what you had posted because on a different forum I spent a lot of time analysing and providing some commentary on someones list only to be abused because I didn't tell them what they wanted to hear.

To answer your first few points:

People were playing Ynnari because soulburst was broken (and arguably is still good, I might post up some thoughts on this later). The 6+ FNP from the Yncarne was an asset yes, but it was not the reason people were playing Ynnari. People were playing Ynnari for those situations where you have just shot three quarters of your army and wiped out a third of theirs and you say "ok that's the end of my psychic phase, now on to shooting". If you are talking about the lists where the Yncarne FNP was given to very large number of razorwing flocks, that was more an issue with the razorwing flocks being extremely good at the time rather than the FNP being good. This can be seen by the fact that this tactic is not used anymore. This is the only example of the FNP being the Yncarne's primary purpose I can think of / have seen.

With respect to the Harlequins and their -1, it was and still is that good. Neither the Mirage Launchers or the Alaitoc bonus are game breaking but they do put craftworlds and harlequins in a unique position to be very resilient against an alpha strike. My opinion on why Alaitoc has seemed to be much more hyped than the harlequins one was because Alaitoc has a lot more potential for stacking the negative to hit modifiers, and the Craftworlds codex is just in a better place. The index harlequins with the were bad and with the -1 to hit became ok. Alaitoc craftworld attribute takes a codex that is pretty good, and makes it really frustrating for opponents who are used to alphastriking their way to victory against most lists.

Also remember that I am not necessarily claiming that the Alaitoc trait is game-breaking, (although it is in certain situations), I am just claiming that it is the best choice of the 5 options we get and that in most cases, taking even one of your detachments as something else is a weaker choice for your list.

In responding to your point on the use of the Saim-Hann trait for melee-centric armies or detachments I was in the same boat as you recently and only just changed my mind. If you look at one of the threads I posted lower I asked specifically that question, Saim-Hann vs Alaitoc. I would encourage you to have a look at this article, specifically the comments section where The Mattler and Abusepuppy have a fairly lengthy discussion on the exact same topic. This was the conversation that changed my mind on the topic. I highly suggest people have a read of the whole thing as these two both have some very insightful opinions on how to best run Eldar.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/12/eldar-codex-review-special-rules/#IDComment1055628011.

A quick summary of the above discussion with respect to Saim-Hann. Re-rolling charges, the Novalance, and the Warriors of the raging winds stratagem is really good for units like shining spears and banshees, but are not worth the investment of a whole detachment to take.

To address your comment on opinions of each of the attributes I thought I would state my opinion of each of them, including their relevant warlord traits, relics and stratagems because considering them on their own is not really that useful.

Bad Craftworlds
Biel-Tan: Attribute does what an Autach does but only for Shuriken weapons. Find the points to take an Autach and also get whichever other bonus you choose. Have to mention their warlord trait, for being pretty much the best on in the game, but still not worth the opportunity cost for taking a whole detachment as Beil Tan and making one of them your warlord. None of their relics or stratagems are anything to make them worth taking.

Iyanden: I see the Iyanden trait as a big trap. Yes it is good to keep things more effective at lower wounds, but it is better to keep them effective for longer by preventing them from taking the wounds in the first place through either the Alaitoc or Ulthwe traits. The morale thing is good but most of the eldar armies I see are running smaller squads most of the time and morale just isn't a problem. The Psytronome is good, but much like the Biel-Tan warlord trait, one good thing is not worth the opportunity cost of taking a whole detachment as Iyanden.

Ok Craftworlds
Ulthwe: Ulthwe trait is good, but the biggest problem with it is that it is doing the same thing (Survivability) but not as good as Alaitoc. A -1 to hit is better at keeping things alive in nearly all situations than the 6+ FNP. A lot of people claim that the Ulthwe trait is always on whereas the Alaitoc trait only applies further away from 12" but that is not really true. There are a lot of situations where the 6+ is worth so little it is negligible. Think about a situation where something with 2 damage guns (like dark reapers) is shooting at single wound targets. The Ulthwe trait will only save 1 in 36 of those models who fail their save, as they have to roll a double 6 to prevent the damage from both wounds. On top of this, there is the units who already have FNP saves for which the trait does nothing. I'm not trying to say that Alaitoc is always effective either, but both of the traits have times when they don't apply. The bonus for Alaitoc trait I find is the ability for you to manipulate the movement of your opponent. I have often found my opponents make mistakes with their positioning because they are too concerned with trying to circumvent the Alaitoc trait. Ulthwe warlord trait is reasonable as more command points are always good, and if you are using guardians the stratagem is also pretty good which is part of the reason I rate Ulthwe OK and not bad like Iyanden and Biel-Tan.

Saim-Hann: I will be brief since I touched on it above. Saim-Hann is good, trait, relic and stratagem are all fantastic but the problem is they are only worth it for a small portion of the eldar army and the cost of taking a whole detachment as them is generally not worth it. This is definitely arguable though and chosing a Saim-Hann detachment of banshees or shining spears with an autach with novalance might be worth it. Additionally you have to consider that Alaitoc banshees and spears will be alive longer to make more charges when comparing that with the Saim-Hann benefit of re-rolling the charge distance. I would be interested to hear anyone else's opinions on this though.

Good Craftworld:
Alaitoc: Negatives to hit are just that good, they along with fantastic deep strike defence make craftworld Eldar very resilient to the alpha strike which I find very prevalent in the meta at the moment. Additionally they allow me to comfortable take the second turn, which lets me not care about having a large number of units and gives the benefit of going second which is good for most missions I play. On top of this they have a great relic, and a stratagem which while situational, helps arguably the strongest troops choice in our army be very difficult to remove from an objective at a key moment in the game. To me Eldar's weakness is defence, they go down to someone farting in their direction. The Alaitoc trait is the best way to shore that up.

Here is the list I am assuming that you are talking about:

Alaitoc battalion

spiritseer
spiritseer

5 dire avengers with diresword exarch
5 dire avengers with diresword exarch
5 dire avengers with double shuriken exarch

hemlock wraithfighter, jinx

wave serpent, spirit stones,vectored engines shuriken cannons (for two units avengers)

vyper, 2x shuriken cannons
vyper, 2x shuriken cannons

warwalker, brightlance, shuriken cannon
warwalker, brightlance, shuriken cannon
warwalker, brightlance, shuriken cannon

Alaitoc supreme detachment

Wraithknight, heavy wraithcannons

Iyanden spearhead

spiritseer

Wraithlord,2x shuriken catapults, 2x shuriken cannons
Wraithlord,2x shuriken catapults, 2x shuriken cannons
Wraithlord,2x shuriken catapults, 2x shuriken cannons

funny list! I am going to test it! I am not sure if it going to be an easy win for the opponent or it is going to be very difficult for the opponent to deal with all these high toughness/wounds models.

To answer your question on which trait is best for the wraithknight, I think it is Alaitoc. As I explained above, I believe that the Iyanden trait is a trap, as keeping the knight effective by preventing wounds is better than it being effective at lower wounds. In this situation Ulthwe is close to Alaitoc, however I still believe Alaitoc has the edge. With the heavy wraithcannons, you want to stand back and shoot. Very few targets are going to want to come within 12" for fear of being charged by the knight. I give the edge to Alaitoc just because of the fact that -1 to be hit is just better than a chance to ignore some damage.

For all the reasons outlined above, I would suggest changing the wraithlord detachment too.