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Messages - SharkoutofWata

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Discussion: Space Marines / Re: Scouts army
« on: August 16, 2017, 09:11:12 AM »
The downside to Land Speeders is that they are hitting on 4s after moving.  Hitting on 4s is pretty less than ideal.  I'm rarely worried about a single Typhoon shot or a Multimelta every other turn.  It's just not worrisome.  And they're easy to knock down again when they finally start biting.

Stormtalons and Stormravens though, they're awesome.  Hands down, awesome units with almost no downside.  I just dropped a Stormtalon in my own Ultramarines list and not sure if I made the right choice still.  They do work.

The only other unit that comes to mind is Reivers, but they aren't Scouts despite their look of stripped down armor.  They are pretty interesting though.  Better than Space Marines in smaller armor.  Not nearly as bulky.  Anything else wouldn't be in Space Marines.  What comes to mind first is the Elysian Guard Regiment, or Scion allies in a separate Detachment so you keep your Chapter Tactics.  Something that can fluffily be guided in by your Scouts and strike hard on the things they can't quite deal with.

Discussion: Space Marines / Re: Scouts army
« on: August 14, 2017, 04:43:14 PM »
Scouts are a Raptor thing, so you'd be using Raven Guard Tactics.  This unlocks Chapter Master Issodon who takes the hard hitting pregame up a notch and gives you more flexibility with deployment.  A techmarine almost seems like the necessary other HQ because of how weak Tarantulas are.  It would atleast give some ability to survive, even if it's only minor.  One big thing to note is that if the closest vehicle target for a Lascannon type is in combat, you don't get to shoot.  That's how I understand this specific rules interaction based on the FAQ about determining closest target when attempting to target characters.  Weird that Assault Cannons don't seem to have the same restriction.

I might also consider a Land Raider Proteus.  It doesn't break the theme since they have an Exploatory Augry Web thing that seems like the sort of covert deal that would work well with this sort of theme.  I just can't put my trust in Tarantulas considering a good player can and will make it so they can't shoot anything important.  Zig Zag a Flyer in front of it so you're trying to hit on a 5+ for Turn 1, then kill it at their leisure.  Having a significant threat elsewhere should allow more of the emplacements to survive.

Discussion: Officio Assassinorum / Re: Thoughts on Assassins in 8th
« on: August 12, 2017, 03:52:48 PM »
I've seen it and it was pretty worthless.  The Vindicare can't reliably kill a character in a turn and while some players walk their Captains and such up the field, that's not standard practice.  The aura buff allows the Captain to hide out of Line of Sight in a static position and buff up the likes of a Devestator squad or whatever else doesn't need to move.  They babysit, and the Vindicare just plinks away at a unit just like any other gun in the army.

The Callidus and Culuxes though, they get stuff done.  Yes they die, but they tie up an opponent for a minute and deal good damage before going down.  I've heard good things about the Eversor for the same reason but haven't seen it myself.  There's less an opponent can really do against these than shift deploymen a bit, so in my opinion they are far more valuable.  That said, I wouldn't ever bring one in any of my Imperium armies for the reason stated above.  There's too many cool things I can bring before I get to dusting off my assassins.

Discussion: Blood Angels / Re: Blood Angels 8th theory
« on: August 10, 2017, 08:55:52 AM »
The Inferno Pistol and Hand Flamer have fundamental flaws that limit their usefulness.  But first I want to clarify that they don't work as extra attacks in Assault.  They can be used in the shooting phase of your turn even if you're locked in combat, which frankly doesn't happen much.  It's a nice idea, but I've found myself cutting pistols every chance I can because engagements either happen in two rounds of combat and someone has fallen back, or at range and pistols are useless.  I've played way too many games where my Plasma pistols have gone unusued and they're twice the range.

The fundamental problem though is the range.  A jump unit isn't usually going to stay on the table from Turn 1, and if you Deep Strike, you can't use those guns.  If you're charged past the range, you can't use those guns.  6" is not a lot and it's tough getting that close in your movement phase alone.

I haven't been able to justify adding specialty pistols, but Blood Angels are paying Index cost for Thunder Hammers and Power Fists, and that reduction when the Codex comes out might change my mind.  Right now though, I don't bother.  Deployment flexibility is more important to me than a few extra shots.

General Discussion / Re: Morale tests - an opportunity to abuse?
« on: August 04, 2017, 11:49:10 PM »
Leadership is already something experienced players are taking into account while list building.  A ten man squad is vulnerable, but two five man, each with their own Sergeant or so on, has no vulnerabilities.  You kill five of ten, I have to roll a four or under to keep a good unit from losing a man, or, you've killed my squad already and you now have to start from square one with my whole new squad.  You can clearly see which one is going to take less loses.  The units that stay up there in body count are units that don't matter.  Death Company, Cultists, Guardians, use and abuse units that do their job and then die.  Or, they're units that can't be touched no matter if you have a -20 modifier.  My Tyranids or Huron Blackheart's aura ability or Poxwalkers or Conscripts with a Commissar.

Now that's not to say don't do it.  I wiped my opponent's Devestators squad off the table because of Morale once or twice, and it's a good friggin feeling.  Just don't count on that being your damage.  It's an awesome bonus and by all means include some units to take advantage, but make sure they have a way or an option to do things the old fashioned way when you invariably go up against the MSU armies or fancy tricks that some Factions have.

Discussion: THE LIST / Re: 2000pts Blood Angels
« on: August 01, 2017, 05:21:38 AM »
I'd swap the Assault Cannons on the Razorbacks for Heavy Flamers and drop the Vindicator for literally anything else that costs the same points.  Assault Cannons at BS4+ are garbage getting a pathetic amount of wounds through on MEQ targets.  Stormravens are fine because they're BS3+ on the move and that's worth the points, but not on mobile Razorbacks.  Vindicators are just worthless in the current Edition.  Maybe go 'neiner-neiner' to the vanilla players by including a Rifleman Dread they have to jump through hoops to get now.

Count the Power Fist as a Hammer in the DC squad and I'd call it good enough for the table.

I've never seen someone waste points on a Fortification, and my LGS has everything from Bastions to a Fortress of Redemption available for us regulars to use.  So it's not like it's a purchase we don't want to make.  Most games are played with Bastions as mere terrain pieces.  But still, outside of test games or the old Malanthrope in the building trick of Nids, I haven't seen them in a long time.

Discussion: Orks / Re: Ork Psychic question
« on: July 20, 2017, 04:36:16 PM »
Natural double 1s and double 6s are always Perils, no matter what mods are included.  Mods that lower a score or raise a score below 2 or higher than 12 do not Perils.

Raven Guard is hands down the most powerful. It outright breaks a lot of opponents passively, forcing them to do something that their army might not be set up for. Forcing them to advance hard when maybe they didn't want to. Rock, paper, scissors is the name of the game and Raven Guard now have more armies where they can be the favorable matchup against. After fighting against Ghostkeels and Tau suits, -1 to hit can get crippling, even for Marine armies that have good BS. Plasma in particular because ridiculously dangerous thanks to how mods are now. Moving and firing with Heavy Weapons, multi wound model deterioration, suddenly you're hitting on 6s and the unit that does that is no longer a problem while they try to close the distance and be useful again.

Salamanders are a close second though but it's not because of them being more favorable in matchups. They simply don't have to rely as hard on aura buffs, which is a big benefit in army building. Being able to reroll hits, wounds and still have the CP reroll for Damage is a big bonus that will see a lot of use on things like Lascannon Dreads and Devastators. Yes, a better effect can be done with a Chapter Master equivalent but that's a lot of points for a babysitter unit, especially when we're talking about a backfield support unit. It's a good improvement to an army and there's very few times it won't do some sort of benefit.

Scars and Ultramarines are my next choices depending on the playstyle of the player, but both are 'build around or miss out' options. It's not like you can just throw in an Assault Cannon Dread and think that's good enough to Fall Back and shoot with as an Ultramarine. Hitting on 5s, whoop-de-do... For me, it's exactly what I want to match the playstyle I already use, but that's just a happy coincidence.

Imperial Fists are so strict that I'm not expecting much from them. It works great against Scouts and Lictors and... I'm having a hard time thinking of other models that get legitimately tougher in Cover. I feel like it's a minor buff at best, better than nothing, but not good enough to skew matchups in your favor. I've found that for the majority of my horde units that would benefit from cover, the units are too big to actually be fully in thenterrain and I just can't be bothered.

Iron Hands I definitely am not impressed by. A 6+ FNP is a slim chance. It's not going to save a Dreadnought that took a Lascannon to the face. It will take some luck tohave it impact the game at all, but it doesn't actually affect the army in any way. You don't build around that ability. If Iron Hands could use it on their vehicles too I'd be a little warmer to it, but it's just Infantry, Bikes and Dreadnoughts and I'd rather take something else with more of a chance of success.

An Edit: looks like the Iron Hands got a Strategem for being able to move and shoot Heavy weapons without penalty for moving, even on their vehicles.  While not a Chapter Tactic, that's a seriously powerful ability.  I wonder if the less useful Tactics will get beefy Strategems to make up for it.

40K Rules Questions / Re: Repairing vehicles
« on: July 19, 2017, 12:15:32 PM »
Models in transports are not on the table.  They don't have the ability to do anything unless the rules say specifically that the ability can be used while on a transport.

Discussion: Dark Angels / Re: 8th Edition Dark Angels Army list
« on: July 04, 2017, 09:42:23 PM »
Because you're going against competitive armies I'll treat it as a competitive list and tear it apart properly, cause from a power standpoint, there is a lot to be desired.

What's the point of the Patrol?  You're doing nothing with the Tacticals as far as I can see and the Devs are only modest.  Frankly, I think you're putting too many points into big fancy characters that give fairly basic buffs.  Samael is good and all and of the three I think he would be more valuable with your army playstyle from what I'm seeing here, but having three big names at 2k is excessive.  Commit to one, drop the other down to an Interrogator Chaplain or Company Master depending on if you're going for a stabby or shooty unit for the character.

In my experience playing against Dark Angels, you need to commit to a playstyle and theme.  Going down the middle just means your units are weak and you can't hold any real section of the table.  I've had way more trouble against either Greenwing, Deathwing OR Ravenwing, but I've haven't been stopped by a mix of the three.

The deathwing Squad is the Dark Vengeance set obviously and that's a poor build now.  Assault Cannons from a unit without ignoring the -1 BS is putting out a whole whopping two wounds before armor against MEQ, and at only a whimpy -1, they've got a good chance to save it.  It's worse against bigger things obviously and absolutely abysmal against things that give a further -1 to your BS, as a lot of armies are capable of.  Even Twin Assault Cannons are garbage now point for damage.  The Chainfist is two extra points of eh and in a competitive list it doesn't need to be there.  I like it for the guaranteed average damage, but frankly this whole unit doesn't need to be there.

The Deathwing Knights have a purpose, I'll grant you that.  They're beefy and hard to kill and a bad roll for your opponent means they are there to stay.  Incredibly annoying to have to put down but without some real support...  I've hated seeing a unit of them with an Interrogator Chaplain and Ancient and they can usually just flat out murder whatever they don't like.  Hitting on 3s with their Mace is a bigger bonus than I had given them credit for, but they need that extra attack to really do some slaughtering, which means the Ancient has to make the charge too.  Not an easy task every time so your mileage will vary compared to my opponent who slaps them in a Land Raider Crusader.

The Dreadnought hits on 3s after moving with its six shots...  I'm less than thrilled.  Autocannons or bust if you ask me.  Less shots, more Rend, twice the damage.  Taking an Assualt Cannon over the Autocannon is a poor choice.  I'd look pretty hard at the Deredeo though if your area does Forge World.  Lots of Autocannons.

Samael will make your Ravenwing more powerful.  A Ravenwing Apothecary will make them last longer.  The two together will be annoying as all hell to kill.  You don't get an Invul, which is why I say Ravenwing is the weakest of the three, but that doesn't mean Ravenwing are weak.  If you build up a Black Knight squad right witht he right character support, they can just walk through whatever they want to walk through.  Hang out at max range and blast with some Plasma Talons and MEQ won't stand a chance while reviving your own guys.  I can't stress enough how annoying that is to have friggin reviving multiwound models.

The Ravenwing squad needs to just be dropped in favor of more Black Knights.  Why are you taking the whimpy little brothers and still trying to put Plasma on them?  If they were Melta, we could talk, but it's worse versions of the Black Knights, plain and simple.

Land Speeders are one of either two things.  Long distance gunners that have the ability to move only when they absolutely must, or close range burners with Twin Heavy Flamers to rack up some hits before they die horribly.  Yours are neither and won't accomplish much now that they move and hit on 4s.

Ezekiel and the Tacs need to just be dropped.  They don't help in any way, shape or form.  Use the optional slots in the other two detachments if you want more stuff.

A trick with Devestators is another Apothecary on foot and some extra dudes in the Devs squad.  Seven models or so.  Now, the Devs have extra guys to burn and the Apothecary can maybe pick them back up.  Turn your squad into 2+ armor 7 regen Wounds of annoyance in cover.  With your lack of long range stuff, I'd keep them all at Lascannons and see what you can kill.  There should always be targets for four very healthy shots.

So with these changes in mind but not adding up points, I'd be looking at:
Interrogator Chaplain in Terminator Armor
Deathwing Knights w/ Watcher
Deathwing Ancient (maybe)
Ravenwing Apothecary
Venerable Dreadnought (maybe)

Samael On Bike
Black Knights
Black Knights
Land Speeder with Flamers

Alternatively, if points are really bad, drop the Speeder and just shove it all into the Vanguard Detachment.  Takes a hit on CPs but it's doable and you have zero tax units that way.  I've kept a single backfield unit for an Objective with their Apothecary, a high threat Speeder to maybe take some fire away from your Black Knights and the now three meaty units with Samael hopefully buffing both squads at once and the Apothecary bouncing between them as needed and the Deathwing being Turn 1 pressure from Deep Strike.  Hopefully I haven't removed too much of the flavor in your playstyle with my advice but I definitely think you'll bump up competitive level.

Discussion: Dark Angels / Re: Thoughts on the Dark Angels in 8th
« on: July 01, 2017, 04:01:53 PM »
My regular opponent is Dark Angels and they have strong builds.  Greenwing led by Azrael with Darkshrouds; Belial, Interrogator Chaplains and Terminators does work and Ravenwing while gimped compared to 7th are still quality units.  In my experience though, I can walk all over any combination of the three but have to rely on luck if only one of the three are in play.  They don't buff each other well and need very different tactics, but at 2k of a single Company, they're quality. 

Greenwing is very good at traditional tactics with screen units, tanks with Invuls from Azrael, a ridiculous amount of ways to screw with your opponent's getting their shots to deal damage but because the clump is only as fast as the slowest unit, it's not as aggressive as some could hope.  But most armies with vehicles will have to stay still to even have a decent chance of hitting what the Darkshrouds protect.  Hitting on a 6+ from a Chimera or Leman Russ sponsons?  No thanks, I'll just stay put and struggle.

Deathwing don't have the true mobility but they can apply Turn 1 Deep Strike pressure with units that just won't friggin go down.  Force me to be reactionary instead of on the offensive, and that can quickly change the game.  If luck is on my side and the mission allows me to breakout and get mobile again, I usually can but it's not an easy task.  If luck is against me then I have to buckle down and fight it out, and of my armies only my Nids are unphased by 3++ Terminators since our weapons only have a -1 Rend normally anyway.  We have no downside compared to other more AP armies firing at Storm Shielded Terminators.  A unit of them, Chaplain, Ancient and Apothecary is friggin hard to put down, all piling out of a Crusader...  Very annoying to kill.  I've had them walk right through my Chaos and was only able to bring them down by Falling Back with four units that couldn't finish the job and blasting full bore with a Land Raider at the last Chaplain for Warlord and Game.  Nothing else was killing it.

Ravenwing is in my opinion the weakest of the three, but that's not saying they are actually weak.  Jink is dead now and Darkshrouds do that job better, but Plasma Talons are some serious pricks.  Against Vehicle armies they don't do that much but against infantry and occasional monsters, they wreck them.  Throw in some Melta Bikes and they get more Take All Comers but while they have the mobility, they don't have that much survivability.  Good targeting can put them down and the hate that Bikes get in regards to cover is pretty significant.  They can't toe-in a crater anymore.  It's far from impossible, but there's more unfavorable matchups.

It's not a Twin Lascannon, it's one.  So the platform is 120pts all told with a single shot, when a Razorback is 115pts with an actual Twin Lascannon.  Slight decrease in stats, but twice the shots and transports small units which you have.  Frankly, the Hunter is just too expensive for the little bit it does.  I'd rather take that Razorback, some Devestators, Dreadnought with Las/Missile, literally anything that does more shots.  With as many Wounds as things have now, one shot is a drop in the bucket and a lot of things can make it fizzle into 'not worth the trouble' territory.

Discussion: THE LIST / Re: Chaos - Deathguard - 1500 pts
« on: June 28, 2017, 12:27:27 PM »
You're very VERY light on anti armor.  Once the Defiler dies, and things die fast this Edition, you're going to be about out of things that can actually do damage.  I'd drop one of each character and support your army with another heavy hitter.  A tank of some kind that isn't a Vindicator.  I'd personally go with a Predator, but arguments can be made for anything from Helbrutes to Forge World stuff.  it all depends on the missions you play though.  Eternal War, this sort of army I've been seeing perform well.  Maelstrom, not so much.  Nurgle is slow and needs long range capabilities while the Bloats apply pressure.

So I held off posting until I played against them properly, because while I was given a competitive rundown, my unfamiliarity with the army meant I was likely to get some units wrong.  Now that I can properly put names to faces, I'm more confident saying what I've seen.  AdMech are friggin ridiculously good.  There's no ifs ands or buts about it and the only reason to complain about anything is that you have to pay for your guns now.  Certain units took hits, there is no denying that, but the army overall is ridiculous.  It is what Tau wish they could be.

The Kastellan Robots alone fire 18 S6 -2 shots PER MODEL, all of which can be healed by a little dude hanging around them.  Each Plasma Heavy Servitors is putting out D6 shots in Spam numbers that losing some to overheating is a tiny price to pay.  Long range Lascannons on the shooty Dragoons and a Knight Crusader means you have all the bases covered in a shooting army.  Healing is practically guaranteed between Cawl and the little HQ guy I don't remember the name of, though I was pleased to find out that they can't heal the Knight so I could kill it even while rolling poorly.  You're clear to turtle up hard and remove a ridiculous amount of the enemy on Turn 1.  I'd have been tabled smoothly if I hadn't gotten first turn using my Ultramarines.  And my opponent, who is admittedly one of the top AdMech players in the ITC circuit, had just finished tabling Eldar Wraiths.

I don't know how much fluff is in an AdMech army simply because I never cared about the Faction, but unless you really love the robotic ninjas, I can't imagine there being a problem with how much damage this army can dish out.  Those robots though, they put the fear of the Omnissiah in me and you can be sure I focused them down before anything else.  They might look derpy, but that's a scary friggin unit right there and will keep hordes at bay.

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