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Messages - SharkoutofWata

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1
The point of this one is so that you can replace the Storm Bolter with a Shield and still get the Cyclone.  You can't trade the Storm Bolter for a Shield and trade that same Storm Bolter for a Cyclone and Storm Bolter or other heavy weapon.  You've already gotten rid of it.  You won't ever have the extra Storm Bolter in this case because you are taking a Cyclone outside of the 'replace' list.

The Long Fang blah blah can never take a Storm Shield.  It's not in his lists of things to take.  He can take one item from the melee weapons list to replace the sword and a Combi or Heavy weapon.  From a gameplay perspective, this makes sense.  The unit is meant to be shooty and with wound allocation at your choice, the player would tank so many high AP value wounds onto a friggin 3++ model, protecting the whole squad.  I'm sure this was intentional.

2
Discussion: Dark Angels / Re: Deathwing and Cyclone Missile Launcher
« on: June 23, 2017, 12:00:09 PM »
As silly as it is, RAW allows you to do practically whatever you want.  It says you may TAKE a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Weapon, not replace anything for these options.  Look at the vanilla Terminator squad and there they use 'replace'.  So you can have a model with a TH/SS/Cyclone/Storm Bolter or 2x Storm Bolters, Cyclone and Chainfist.  I wouldn't model anything with these weapon options though, cause that's gotta change on codex release.  But, as written, that's how it is right now.

3
40K Rules Questions / Re: 8th ed questions
« on: June 22, 2017, 05:35:56 PM »
1) No restriction means no restriction.  Feels wrong to be able to, but I'm also not seeing any reason why you shouldn't be able to.  Looks like powers are okay to use at any time other than when in transports.

2) You can definitely charge units you can't see.  The Day 1 FAQ, Developer's Commentary or whatever they're calling it, specifically says that the intention is that you can.  Just keep in mind that only Infantry can pass through ruins walls and every other unit type has to go around them.

4
Discussion: Blood Angels / Re: The new 8th Ed. BA Units
« on: June 22, 2017, 01:47:48 AM »
I could not disagree any harder.  Without an Invul, models die so fast that it's not often worth the effort and there's better units point for point that I want to spend my CP reroll on from a Deep Strike charge.  Any competent player will screen good units with bad ones, making a significant learning curve but when they do it right and fallback or die in Blood Angel's turn, the Sanguinary Guard evaporate.  The risk and reward from an Assault kill is pretty unforgiving for both players and I'm sure the meta will settle with the winner being cheap units that can be sacrificed after their strike without costing you an arm and a leg.  We got that market cornered with Death Company.

Vindicators are not what they should be.  They are a failure.  4+ to hit with D3 shots after moving, D6 only if the unit is 5+ models.  I've seen them act as midfield control but they are hard countered by a single Land Raider or similar unit.  Even three of them is scary for about a single turn, then they're outpositioned or outranged.  If they could shoot at full BS after moving or if they stayed at D6 shots always, they'd be very very good units, but as they stand, they're little more than gun emplacements and targets.  I've fought against them twice now and been on the table next to them three times and each time they have been abysmal.  With the faulty BS they're not real squad killers and with the low amount of shots they're not Vehicle/Monster killers.  They just missed the mark by a smidge but it shows HARD.

You shouldn't compare Dante to Azrael.  Dante is 100% a beatstick while Azrael is a buff character.  Comparing a sword to a screwdriver.  Yes you can poke people with both and yes you can turn a screw with both, but they are made for their roles.  Dante just makes the murder and does it very very well.  I want to try out the Sanguinor in a list though to see how they compare.  I'm seeing some good possibilities from that model, and for cheaper.  I actually expect him to be more viable than Dante because of the price.

I haven't actually tried out the pistols for the same reason though.  Points.  I have a hard time bothering with pistols in general when there's no penalty to Bolters and combat rarely lasts till my next turn.  When it does, I'd rather fall back and pop the now freed up unit with something really meaty, like a Land Raider or Baal Predator.  If something has survived my many many attacks for most Blood Angel units I field, I need a D6 weapon to come finish the job.  I've noticed my army almost entirely consists of CCWs or full bodied Special/Heavy Weapons.

Priest is an autoinclude.  Even just bumping one unit to S5 means wounding on 3s.  And the Narthecium rules are GOOD.  Terminators, Sanguinary Guard, Characters, they all benefit so much from having that ability to heal every turn.  Even in a different style list, Devestator squads of 8~ with a Priest hanging out next to them means four ablative wounds that keep coming back.  That's no laughing matter right there.  There is almost always a reason to take a Priest in whatever sort of list you're building somewhere in there.


5
Discussion: Painting / Re: Glaze leaves shiny "water stain"
« on: June 21, 2017, 09:31:20 PM »
As far as I know, that's the desired effect of a glaze. At least that's why I use it over a wash in certain applications. For a wash you are using too much of it in one spot. But a glaze is for a more 'living' surface like plasma coils or lenses or that type of thing. That is just my personal experience but I'm a pretty basic painter.

6
The Start Collecting box is the full kits of every thing pictured so you'll get the transfers for the CSM squad and the Terminator Lord.  I don't know if the Helbrute comes with transfers since they were so atrocious previously I never bothered to pick one up outside of the 7th Edition Starter.  They're good units now though so you don't have to worry about that.

You're right that there's lots of room for flexibility.  You have to put some thought into what HQs are going to try to stick to what units, but overall you won't have to worry about a complicated army being complicated to build.  What sort of playstyle were you looking at?

Forge World is expensive and shipping is even more expensive, but it's no more difficult than ordering something foreign off eBay.  Play groups might do some mass orders from time to time, to avoid shipping costs, so check local Facebook groups or stores to see how the people in your area get Forge World.  Remember though that Forge World is optional.  Most people make do with the transfers included in the boxes.

7
It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that every last Keyword has to match for every single unit in a Detachment.  One keyword has to match.  Imperium.  From there you can take whatever you want.

8
So everything you have mentioned is 7th Edition.  On Friday, a new Edition just dropped and we are now in 8th.  There are no Formations, there's no Decurion, there is no Unbound.  Chaos is no longer trash.  Now, you make a Detachment around a specific Keyword and you can go as fine as 'Death Guard' or focus on 'Heretic Astartes' or go as broad as 'Chaos' and still be perfectly fine in building your army.  You pick how focused you want your army to be and which direction you want to take it.

So the way the Keywords work now is that certain models buff certain other models.  In your example, yes you can play Thousand Sons and include Kharn, but Kharn can only be World Eaters keyword, never Thousand Sons keyword, so your Chaos Lord who allows rerolls of 1 to all Thousand Sons units within 6" does not allow Kharn to do anything.  But, because they both have the Chaos keyword, they can be included in the same army.  They're restricted on the table with small mechanics, not restricted in building your army.

There are two ways to get symbols.  Transfers are the most common, which are sheets with things like temporary tattoos on them that slide off their paper with water and attach to the model.  Nearly every box you get will come with some for whatever armies are most popular.  If you get a CSM box, you get a sheet that has ten symbols for World Eaters, Black Legion, Death Guard, Red Corsairs, Alpha Legion and so on and so on.  Or, you can spend the money on a place called Forge World where there are higher quality models and a higher price tag.  These are actual modeled parts including the symbols where they should be for a lot of the Legions and Chapters.

Magnetizing is a breeze once you get used to it.  A nice little magnet in the part where you glue the arm to the torso and you're good.  Drill two holes, glue the magnets in, then paint the mini normally.

You don't need codexes anymore.  With a new Edition we got rid of every single old book the game used.  All of them.  So now you still need the Rulebook or you can download the basic rules on GW's website for free.  It's a whole whopping 8 pages of rules now, with special rules attached directly to units.  Unit rules are going to be found in one of the five Indexes now.  Think of them as a temporary Codex while GW recovers from scrapping their entire game and everyone as players starts from Square 1.  You will specifically need Index Xenos 1 for Necrons and Index Chaos for, well, Chaos.

The bonus to starting out right now, most of the units that were bad got significantly better, so picking what looks cool is actually viable again and you won't get stomped on the table as much because you went with a specific theme.  It's been a long time since we could do that without getting wrecked every game.

The new rules: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/40k/warhammer_40000_en.pdf


9
Discussion: THE LIST / Re: 2000 Pt Themed Tyranid Army
« on: June 19, 2017, 10:24:26 AM »
Definitely some improvements you can make here.  It's close to how I play my own Nids so I'm pretty familiar with the playstyle you want to go for.

Adrenal Glands on everything.  If it is coming out of the ground, it needs Glands.  It's the difference between a 9" charge and an 8", and that's a big difference on the dice.

The Zoas are pretty useless here.  You don't have enough on the table to need the spare Synapse.  Two Tyrants handles pretty much everything, with Primes and Warriors filling in the gaps.

The lack of Flyrant is a bad move.  You're trying to get your charges off, but you're going to be trying to control all of your Deep Strikers with only two 8" bubbles.  Having Wings let's you cross the table and support if and when you need to.  Flyrants aren't amazing anymore, but they have their purpose still.  I'd give them a set of Deathspitters though or both sets of Talons.  Losing one pair means you're giving up a 10pt Attack.  Not a good move for no tradeoff.

You have too many Hormagaunts.  Hormagaunts are nice and all, but Genestealers are 100% better.  If you have a Swarmlord, take a max unit of Stealers for Turn 1 Charge goodness.  Move/Advance + Move/Advance + Charge.  Don't bother with a Broodlord though, it just gets left behind.  This unit is meant to hurry forward, apply immediate pressure, absorb damage Turn 1 to save your other stuff and still hit hard enough.  Best 240pts a Nid army can spend if you have the Swarmlord too.  Having them in your opponent's face then more units coming from behind them via holes, you have table control on Turn 1, Turn 2 at the latest.  Then your opponent is stuck reacting to your moves instead of pushing back.

Drop the Rattles on the Trygons.  It's a silly weapon.  Adrenals are better for five points and Toxinspikes are a measly single point.  You aren't charging hordes with a Trygon Prime, you're mincing big stuff that isn't going to care about a Morale test.  Your little gribblies that come with the Prime are the ones going for hordes.

10
Discussion: Chaos Space Marines / Re: 8th Death Guard legion question
« on: June 18, 2017, 06:59:43 AM »
You can keep these units in the army anyway.  There is no restriction that says 'all units in a Detachment must share ALL keywords'.  They must share a grand total of one.  Chaos.  Done.  So your Terminators and so on can be Legion: Whatever and the only effect is that Aura buffs don't hit them and vice versa.

11
Discussion: Blood Angels / Re: The new 8th Ed. BA Units
« on: June 17, 2017, 06:45:16 PM »
Lemartes is a pretty quick include for me and will likely be my next model bought, followed closely by another Baal Predator so I could get the triple flames.  I severely underestimated that, and after trying out my dakka Baal, it needs to go.  -1 to hit after moving is a MASSIVE difference from firing two guns at full Ballistic Skill, and that difference is ridiculously important.

Sanguinary Guard have been dropped from my list hard.  They're a huge amount of points for what amounts to minimal upgrades over Vanguard Veterans.  I'd rather have a 3+ Invul instead of flat 2+ Armor that is made into that 3+ more often than not. 

Melta Squads is an easy fix.  Company Veterans get Jump Pack options, and that's as many Specials as you like in as small of units as you like.  Sergeant with Combi, two models with Melta is a squad right there.  Pod em if you have to, but Jump Packs drop them 9" away and something should die from that.

I love walking a Death Company Dread up though, threatening a huge section of the table while my actual Death Company sandwich a target in there.  And Dante impresses me every time.  He's surrounded by a Priest and some Company Veterans now though, not Sanguinary Guard.  I may need more Veterans as I go bigger but so far in 2k I just know I need more tanks with fire.

12
Discussion: THE LIST / Re: 1500 BA tournament
« on: June 16, 2017, 01:08:27 AM »
Points are off by a pretty decent margin.  Razorbacks are 65+50.  115, not 105.  Terminators are a total of 564pts in your build.  Ten bodies, eight Storm Bolters, ten Powerfists, an Assault Cannon and a Heavy Flamer.  There's no chance for you to add in more Razorbacks unless you ditch the Terminators completely, which may not be the worst idea.  While a 300pt unit, five man with all the trimmings, is a good investment, over a third of your list in a single unit is not.  I didn't add up all your points, so double check the rest.  I use both Razorbacks and Terminators so saw something off with them in particular.

I'd look hard at those Terminators though.  The Heavy Flamer can't fire after Deep Strike because of obvious reasons, and I'm less than impressed with the Assault Cannon.  Terminators DO NOT have Relentless, so the -1 to hit means statistically you're hitting with a whole whopping three shots of an Assault Cannon before outside mods, with a minimal Rend, modest damage wounding only GEQ on 2s, it's not that great.  Without a way to get across the table, you're in for a bit of a rough time with either choice of special weapon and, I never thought I'd say this, but the bog standard might even be more reasonable in lower point games.  If you need to cut 21 or 17pts somewhere, this is where I'd pull points from honestly.

Razorbacks also don't have Relentless and are carrying and physically are your major threat outside of the Terminators, so will take a lot of flak for just existing before the Terminators are on the table.  So you're hitting with those Lascannons on 4s, because obviously you want those guys inside to get ahead fast as possible.  Lascannons need to be on a more static platform.  The Razorbacks would do better with Heavy Bolters.  More shots means more hits, especially when you start taking damage from being Target #1.  I'd honestly take the hit and make it an eight man squad with Characters in a single Rhino just to save points though.  Just me being stingy on where I spend my points.

Notable absences are Baal Predators.  They're still quick little bastards and with the Flamestorm and Flamers, they are hitting 3D6 times, no matter how they moved.  That's a big bonus when you're going aggressive like this.  I'd make room for one to pull aggro.

Have you thought about just taking the hit on CPs and just dropping Troops altogether?  They serve little to no purpose here and you'd be better off with just taking what you NEED instead of bothering with tax.  You shouldn't need as many charge rerolls and if you find you do, Lemartes might be just what you need if you switch to Jump Packs or do some clever drop ins the turn you're going to charge with the Death Company.

13
Discussion: Chaos Space Marines / Re: 8th ed I think we back
« on: June 14, 2017, 11:58:59 AM »
Something to remember, just because Death Guard can't be selected on your Terminators doesn't mean that you can't take Black Legion Terminators and do just fine.  The issue is real with the lords but there's nothing you can do there I suppose.  The buffs are to the Legions, so you have to plan out how your army moves before models are even on the table.  For instance, I'm running Red Corsairs along with a handful of Death Guard units.  Maybe not Poxwalkers but Bloat/Blight Drones will be in my army as well as Plagues as Troops, but that means that I'm abandoning the Plagues to be on their own while Huron and my Bike Lord buff very specific units.

One pleasant surprise is the Helbrute.  I'm he first one to complain about the Helbrute, usually very loudly and full of metaphors, but the Helbrute might be one of my autoincludes now.  The Plasma Cannon combined with the new version of Crazed makes for a quickly dying model that has the potential to put out a lot of shots, maybe firing after each phase it takes a Wound, including its own Shooting Phase if it takes a Gets Hot hit.  Even if it just fires once extra per game, the Plasma Cannon is a good weapon to do the firing.

Overall, I'm a bit gloom over the hoops we have to jump through for our Warbands, and Undivided lost a lot of flavor not being able to buff Unit A with MoS and Unit B with MoN to have them even play differently, but I've put together a list or two and found I haven't had to make many or any hard choices to get the playstyle I want out of the Faction.  Lists are coming together smoothly at 2k, much better than they did in the old book.

14
Discussion: Space Marines / Re: The Lost Chapter?
« on: June 10, 2017, 05:01:58 PM »
Don't overreach with your fluff.  Don't say your Chapter is the super secret offspring of the Alpha Legion or a combination of two Chapters that not even the Inquisition knew about because the Emperor himself needed super secret agents that even the Custodies feared.  Keep it simple, keep it mellow and other people might hold interest in your story.  A Chapter that is located somewhat near the Maelstrom, fighting the many renegades, Xenos and daemonic incursions that plague that sector, or something simple like that.  Usually, tailor it to the folks you play against the most, just for some added flair.  If you've got Tau opponents, maybe make your Chapter near the Damocles Gulf, if you face Necrons a lot, say the sector your Chapter patrols is struggling with the reviving Tomb Worlds that have been plaguing the people under your protection.  The smaller you make your backstory in the overall plot of 40k, the more likely it is to be accepted in people's head canon and remembered and enjoyed.

Ruleswise, don't make your own house rules that give you bonuses.  Bounce between factions and Chapters, sure, but stick 100% to established rules.  If you want to, for instance, make your 1st Company into something like Dark Angels Deathwing but your 2nd Company is all about them Jump Packs like Blood Angels then by all means, use multiple codexes but don't say that because it's your special Chapter, they're all able to buff each other.  Make there be a fluff reason for the rift between Companies, but for 8th Edition, make sure you obey the restrictions for aura buffs and transports and Faction differences and folks won't mind a bit.  They might even get a kick out of you limiting yourself because of your ideas of how your Chapter operates.  A bitter rivalry in your own army would be memorable, but that's just one example.  Don't forget that while we don't have Chapter Tactics yet, Forge World should have their own on release day for things like Astral Claws, Red Scorpions and Raptors, and they used to have significant buffs of flavor, not necessarily gameplay buffs, that you can choose from too.

With Narrative Gameplay being a real thing now, make use of it with some folks who don't mind that type of game.  Build your lore actively, in game.  Make historical battles and depending on the outcome, shape the future of your Chapter like that.  For instance, it's completely understandable for the Crimson Fists to have played a massive game against Orks and the Crimson Fists won, but the only squads left standing were either Sternguard Veterans or Tacticals led by Veterans and the Crimson Fists player then made the lore of the Chapter to feature the Veterans very highly.  That's prolly not how that happened, but something similar could have went with yours.  Like if you get tabled in a Narrative game, in your fluff make 1st Company a very rare asset to use.  Make Veterans appear less than 10 models per game max because your death counts means that it's ridiculously rare for a Veteran to actually survive.  Make your battle reports meaningful to how you build your army in the future and how you shape your story.

15
Discussion: Eldar / Re: 8th Ed Ynnari?
« on: June 05, 2017, 05:21:56 PM »
They're still Craftworld Eldar or Dark Eldar and so on.  An Autarch doesn't suddenly know how a drugged up Reaver squad operates, or an Archon isn't suddenly intimately familiar with how Dire Avengers practice war.  They are still different cultures in the fluff.  These units have been fighting side by side for about five minutes, but they've been separate since the creation of the Primarchs.  All those thousands of years aren't going to get smoothed over just because a new Oracle of a god showed up to save their everlasting souls.

From a hard edged rules context, it'd be too much.  If you replace Craftworld and Kabal with Ynnari, you're getting too many buffs just being passed around.  Aeldari Keyword is the general buff, but Craftworld and Kabal are more specialized, keeping your army working as a symphony with each section specifically buffing another section for the best effect.  Soulburst is so powerful an ability in 7th that there's no surprise that they restricted the army that can take it by limiting their 'standard' buff abilities.

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