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Messages - SharkoutofWata

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Discussion: 40K Rumors / Re: here what 8th will look like
« on: April 28, 2017, 01:37:13 PM »
This seems complicated...  Complicated with flyers could be fun, but it does seem like a lot of core rules for them.  I always felt Flyers were too simplified in 7th, unable to actually dogfight and position right, and Death from the Skies was just a waste of time, so from what I can infer, this looks better.  I wonder what the Power is going to mean for these maneuvers.  I'm assuming distance, but I want to know how much, and if it'll be closer to a Crew Shaken downside or a damage if you fail the roll.

Discussion: THE LIST / Re: Muiltple chapter list
« on: April 27, 2017, 06:54:19 PM »
Sticking to the chapters you have there, you should definitely do your best focusing on what they can do.  The Ultramarines do better with the balanced ideas, so either a Battle Company or Skyhammer work very well for them, and Iron Hands are obviously an Armored Taskforce.  There's a nice Decurion that uses that as a core choice I believe, so that has the potential to be your real backbone, and for Salamanders I'm only seeing the Shadow Force Formation as something that can play to their strengths better than what the other Chapters can do.  Their buff is a bit more eh than the rest.

But if you want to go outside of the box, I'd actually start with Crimson Fists.  Pedro Kantor making Sternguard all Obj Sec is a big bonus, dropping them in Pods and having Tacticals in Razorbacks gives you a solid core right there.  Then as far as a fist, consider an Iron Hands Seige Assault Vanguard Force Org Chart from Forge World PDF downloads.  Ironclad as Troops is nothing to sneer at, and you still get your choice of vehicles both from Codex and from Forge World to really take advantage of Chapter Tactics.  And to round it off, Archangels Orbital Intervention Taskforce from Blood Angels, giving you Terminators that can Assault from Deep Strike, and not scatter from Locator Beacons on the Pods.  Now that's just my cherry picked units, and any one of those things could also help out other combinations you like.

I had gone into a bit more detail but swapping over between this and codexes timed out my iPad, so I lost that all.  I shortened the rewrite.

Discussion: 40K Rumors / Notes from the 40k 8th Edition Stream
« on: April 24, 2017, 03:29:20 PM »
Pulled this directly from Reddit and have done zero fact checking of my own because I'm more of a 'I hate everything until I see it in action myself' kind of person.  However, it is worth discussing and I'm curious what others think about what has been revealed.

Quote from: mcimolin on Reddit
What we know so far:

    Rules are written in Scottish
    New faction coming out with 8th, some with the release
    Getting rid of AV for vehicles
    Vehicles and MCs will get less potent as they take wounds (lower WS/BS, etc)
    "Everything will be able to hurt everyone." Specific example of a lasgun taking out a tank
    Heavy weapons will do more wounds than regular weapons (see SW:Armagedon for an idea)
    Stat lines no longer capped at 10
    Stat lines will have to work much harder now as there's more going on
    Unified statline for all models
    Movement values returning
    Armor modifiers returning for weapons
    Templates are removed, no note on how they change but likely going to multiwound weapons.
    If you charge you get to attack first
    Big focus on making CC better
    Big focus on making the game more accessible: Cheaper, easier rules, etc.
    1500 pt games designed to take 90 minutes
    3 ways to play: Open, Narrative, Matched
    Narrative play will use "Power levels" for each unit. Balance a game around the power levels
    Matched play will have a point system very similar to the current game
    Open play is basically do what you want
    Warhammer 40k app like AoS app
    Main rules will be like generals handbook for AoS, updated annually with community feedback
    Top 3 design choice: Game that worked for all 3 ways to play (story, narrative, competitive). Make the game more accessible: cheaper, rules, painting, gaming, etc. Get back to Imperial vs Chaos; Make Chaos great again!
    Hopefully more balanced than previous editions. Tons of playtesting went into this new edition.
    Command Points:
        Designed to make thematic armies better
        Armies must be battle forged w/ force org chart
        Multiple force org charts; 14 at launch. Harder to fill charts give more points
        Give rerolls, can interrupt charges, etc
        Gone when used
        Can only use 1 per phase
        Designed to modify tactical situations
        Basic ones in main rulebook with faction specific ones in codexes
    All new rules will be out day 1 with 5 new books: Main rules, Xenos, Imperial Chaos, one other
    New codexes will have fluff and art as well as rules to make your faction a little more specific (Chapter tactics, command point uses, force org charts)
    Should be less expensive than current codexes. Main rules and unit rules will be free with future units getting warscroll style releases between updates.
    Major story progression over the next few years but not going to remove what's come before. IE not AoSing the setting
    If you feel you recently bought a rulebook and feel you got ripped off they're extending their return policy to 8 weeks from the announcement (last Saturday). If you have proof of purchase they'll give you a voucher for the value if you contact their CS.

For me, everything looks too AOSed for my tastes.  If I wanted to play AOS, I would be, and having 40k not that different to Fantasy is not a step forward in my opinion.  I liked that they were two different games with different mechanics and different ideas on how things worked built in separate directions.  A player could decide they liked one and not the other instead of playing what sounds like the same game with different skins.  There's a lot I don't like, like Lasguns wounding Land Raiders, but I recognize that is because I see a Land Raider as a 4 'wound' model and sixes happen, so I'm not seeing the big picture of what else is changing along with these basic ideas to balance it.  I'm expecting massive changes in the balance, but my little brain can't wrap around it. 

And as always, I'm worried about my specific armies.  Nids and Genestealer Cult look like they'll get hurt by this.  If Acolytes and Genestealers both strike first on the charge, why would I ever take a 17pt Genestealer with four Rending attacks on the charge when the 8pt Acolyte Hybrid does the same damage and the same attacks and the same attack step on the charge.  And the Carnifex losing BS after getting shot...  It already is nearly blind compared to the rest of the Nid army.  Or worse, a Tyrannofex, rolling 5s to hit with a S10 weapon...  But again, I'm no game designer and stuck in my old thinking, not new thinking.

What's raising flags or making you excited to see?

General Discussion / Re: 8th Edition Lists
« on: April 24, 2017, 12:13:49 AM »
I'm finishing up my Ynnari list with models I like and if they're no long playable together then oh friggin well.  I'll wait again just like I did between the latest Eldar Codex and now.  Eventually they'll be playable in the way I like.  I'm used to shelving armies because of rules, either their own or general meta changes but it's not going to stop me from collecting the army.  I have plenty of options to choose from, I'm sure one of my armies will be playable no matter what comes next.

General Discussion / Re: Which assault themed army is most consistent?
« on: April 22, 2017, 04:59:59 AM »
As a Tyranid, Blood Angel and Genestealer Cult player I have to say, none of my armies.  I mean, Genestealers have a big bonus, being able to charge from their Shadows rules, but it's a random roll, the very definition of inconsistent.  Granted, I haven't tried that army with my new dice that aren't ridiculously low rollers, but I had bad luck having my whole army Outflank for four turns of a game before I decided to just walk to where I needed to be.  When it works it friggin WORKS.  Having an 8pt model put out three Rending attacks at common Initiative NOT including the charge is a whole mess of death.  But, Allied Flyrants tend to be the workhorses of that list, taking care of the majority of the enemy that isn't as easy to Assault, which can be a let down depending on what you wanted out of the army.

The best and most consistent charges are always done by 12" movers with a Scout move for a 2nd Turn Charge.  Flesh Hounds in the KDK Gorepack, Dark Angel Ravenwing Knights, that sort of thing.  There's very little that has the speed and durability to cross the table outside of a transport and almost no transports with Assault Vehicle are quality enough to make it there either.  Dark Angels have both in droves, but they're not exactly what I'd call an Assault army, despite how good at it Ravenwing are.  To go for plain consistency in an actual Assault oriented shell, Khorne Daemonkin are prolly the best choice.  There's just a good feeling about Bloodthirsters in KDK that I don't get when I run Flyrants with GSC.

I haven't tried Death Guard Chosen, I use Slannesh Chosen loaded with power weapons, so I'm not wholly sure how that would go.  There's actually a few interactions there I've just never tried, so I'm not sure how they'd perform.  Issue number one is the Transport Capacity of a Land Raider.  You'd be down to Terminator Lord, three Terminators and a Warpsmith and then be full.  Chosen are smaller physically, but as a unit they end up more expensive to survive the same and deal the same damage.

I do agree though of Melta being fluffier, but there's plenty of cases of plasma in the hands of Nurgle units, though it's usually depicted as closer to goo guns than fiery plasma.  Chemical weapons are also popular in Death Guard but I don't think there's a good Codex based representation there.  I think that's just out of Forge World and won't help you here.  From a gameplay point of view, if Terminators are giving you trouble, having your swift units be able to harass them and Centurians is a good move.  And we can't forget how valuable Jink is against Grav. 

Grav is going to do serious work against and sadly there's nothing you can do about that.  Bypassing your added toughness with AP2, you have to hit them at long range or with the Vindicator and that's just not always possible.  Scatters happen but I think you should stick to the attempt.  When Vindicators work, they fill in a wide gap in the CSM Codex.

Terminator Lords suffer from not having good deliveries in CSM.  A Land Raider might be your only choice but that bumps that one unit to over 500pts alone.  That's a hard one to swing at any point level.  It's still fluffy, but it's rough because of what you have to sacrifice elsewhere.  Usually, because I also run a Land Raider, I'll sacrifice a basic CSM squad and make them bog standard minimum squad, leave them at an Objective and just forget about their existence.  Leaves some points for the Raider and unit inside it.  But you'll have to bump up to 1850 for that, or go CAD with Cultists as Troops and a lot of trimming on decent units.

Bikes are without a doubt better than Raptors, just less fluffy.  If you make that move, having T6 bikers is a pure gameplay direction.  This can also free your CSM squad from needing their Melta.  I'd consider Plasma instead for the basic squads, make use of that FNP and give Terminators something to worry about.  But on the other hand, the Bikes also have FNP and might benefit just as much from the Plasma.  I'm running Melta because that's what I'm used to, but Plasma is a good move either way if you're comfortable with your anti-tank as it is.

You're going to be consistently outnumbered when playing Chaos.  CSM pay a lot of points for not a lot of models and you're trying to fit a Decurion at a low points cost so having to pay for tax units is a hit.  What did you find not pulling their weight?  What did you wish you had but didn't?  What did your opponent bring that seemed like it was walking through what you had or just wouldn't go down?

Eight Bolter shots and either an Assault Cannon or Cyclone have a good place in an army as a fighting force in and of itself and can be supported by other things very smoothly.  The idea isn't to tie up a unit and prevent other shots on later turns, which is always a risk when Assaulting, but rather to hem something in with the full army, hitting it simultaneously with another unit or just keeping something in a good position to get shot. 

Hammers and Claws make one of the best bully units in the game, and because of that, they rarely make their points back because their targets are usually weaker than they are.  Standard Terminators have that variable role that means while they still won't make their points back, they can do something else modestly while accomplishing a non-kill point oriented goal.  Assault Terminators are sitting around with their claws up their backsides if they're not actively in a combat.

Yes, that would be a good list.  Only, and I do mean only, issue in the list is the Sigil on the Lord.  Not needed since the Terminator armor gives a 5++.  Use the points for Dozer Blades or a Seige Shield on the Vindicator and you're golden.

So if Death Guard drew you into making an army, why aren't you making a Death Guard army?  Nothing in this list says 'Death Guard' who are notoriously a very walking heavy army utilizing bigger Infantry types.  Centurions are there, but that's the only thing that Death Guard would actually bother with traditionally.  Where's your Terminators, who Death Guard are VERY fond of.

Death Guard out of CSM are in a good place right now, finally able to represent that Heavy Infantry group with natural FNP and Relentless on every Infantry model, making Havocs and even basic squads viable, with Plagues being an afterthought instead of the bread and butter.  You can make a good army out of models that don't look all sickly and paint them up as Loyalist Death Guard using traitor rules.

Or, you can actually use 30k concepts.  You can't legally use a 30k army in 40k, and usually you wouldn't want to, but you can take some heavy inspiration from how an army would be built where Loyalist Death Guard are actually a thing.  For instance, the Death Guard have a Rite of War specific to them, intended to be fluffy and restrictive.  It says that an army may only choose one Fast Attack slot.  So, some interpretation just means that you severely limit your FA ideas.  No flyers and limit your quicker vehicles.  Big lumbering things like Vindicators have more of a place than Bikes would, but Demi-Company demands are a thing you might have to break fluff for.  Other restrictions in that Rite of War are no Running and no Deep Strike, and while the running is whatever, no Deep Strike should be followed if you were trying to emulate what they do in 30k.  Skyhammer is absolutely not a Death Guard style.  Land Speeders are not Death Guard style. 

But with 30k rules spilling over in some cases, Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators would be right at home.  Dropping the Demi-Company in favor of a CAD and enforcing some of these restrictions yourself means you could make something very fluffy for pre-Heresy Death Guard and at some point play 30k with most of the same army.  Cataphractii are huge in Death Guard in particular with the CSM Character Typhus, Typhon back in Heresy days, having what might be the first example of the armor shown in the game. 

While there's not a whole lot wrong with the army you put forward, it would prolly do okay on the table, it just doesn't look like a Death Guard army to me.  80% of an actual Death Guard army is available in 40k, and I'd try to use as much of it as possible.  They make some really cool armies on the table.

Discussion: 40K Rumors / Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« on: April 09, 2017, 03:43:01 PM »
Nearly every Assault based army but Orks gets shafted with this idea.  Just off the top of my head are Blood Angel Baal Strikeforces, who are put into a Detachment to get a +1 Initiative on the charge that is now useless.  Or Genestealers, who are paying points per model for their I6 and getting no benefit.  Weapon based Initiative bonuses, Metamorph and Lash Whips are useless.  In Cult armies, there'd be no reason to take anything but Acolytes if the only thing that matters is who gets the charge.  Why pay 14pts when I can pay 8pts for the same three Rending attacks.

40K Rules Questions / Re: 30k Vehicles for 40k Chaos Armies?
« on: April 03, 2017, 09:35:20 PM »
You are looking for IA:13 if you want to use them as CSM.  IA:2 if you want to use loyalist armies.  Both are books from Forgeworld and they have additional rules in 40k for being relic tanks, but you can work with them.

Upgrades.  There are certain armies where taking just a big standard unit is fine but CSM isn't one of them.  But when I say there's not much to help with, that's because there's no meat yet.  With a Chaos Lord you can build him to be a Biker Lord of Nurgle with T6, S8 attacks at AP2, as much durability as is possible and just turn him into a beefy beatstick you shove down your opponent's threat.  Or maybe a fancy pants duelist with Mark of Slannesh and the Spineshiver blade to maximize damage in Challenges and buff up from Boons.  Or a bodyguard for Abbadon in Terminator gear.  Or maybe you just want him in some CSM squad and he's a tax unit to unlock the Detachment.

The squads are all the same.  Do you want them to kill vehicles or do you want them to kill infantry or do you want them to take Objectives or are they also just tax.  The amount of directions you can go are practically infinite, so you have to have a game plan on what you want them to do.  There are optimized builds for each unit, but that depends on what their role in your army is.  Decide what you want Squad whichever to do and we can work from there.

Looking more into Black Legion themselves, you are missing another bit.  The full Detachment you're using is the Black Legion Speartip, so you're going to need more Terminators, one unit for Abbadon, one unit for the Warband or you can go Chosen if you prefer.  You also need to include an Auxillary choice.  Warband is Core, Bringers is Command, you need 1+ choice of an Auxillary Formation from that list.  Spawn is the cheapest, but there are plenty of better ones.  This won't be an army at 1000pts, so you can expand to 1500 or more with this game plan.

Remember that you want mobility, firepower and durability in equal measure.  That means transports for guys that can't Deep Strike, a swift and powerful group of shots from the guys that do and the ability to move around the battlefield as the battle progresses.

You've got nothing here though.  All your guys are naked.  There's no weapon options anywhere for any of the units.  I suggest you fix that first and foremost.  This isn't an army, it's just Abbadon leading guys...  You have to add options to make them actually accomplish anything on the table.  You can take this too many ways for me to suggest loadouts since many of these units can be set up in a host of ways. You have to have a coherent idea of what each unit wants to get done before and that will guide you in how to set them up with weapons and numbers.

You've set up your army wrong.  The Terminators in Bringers of Despair are not the Terminators in your CAD.  They have to be in the Bringers of Despair Formation, and units can't belong to more than one Detachment.  It's an easy fix, just remove their listing from the units up top and only have them in the Bringers of Despair.  I'd also just make your CAD into Black Legion for the free VotLW, just cause.  There's no downside and it gives you alternate Troops to consider.

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