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Discussion: Eldar / Re: Thoughts on 8th Edition Aeldari/Ynnari
« Last post by Odras on Today at 06:26:33 PM »
Great work!

Just on the windriders, they haven't been increased by as much as you think. They used to cost 17 for Shuriken Catapults, or 27 for scatter laser / shuriken cannon. Now they cost 30 for shuriken catapults which have been buffed, 32 for shuriken cannons and 35 for scatter lasers. So a slight points increase, seemingly in line with all the other Eldar things. Unfortunately I think that the shuriken cannon upgrade is obvious upgrade. because you have to pay for the twin catapults now, it is effectively only a 2 points upgrade to the cannon. This applies to all of the underslung weapons on our vehicles too. Yes the catapults now have 4 shots, but they are only 12" and Str4. The only target they will wound on the same roll as Str6 is T7.

The mathhammer I have been doing agrees with your experiences, as it does with the few games I have played. Crimson Hunters, Hemlocks, Nightspinners and Shuriken Cannon Windriders are some of the most points efficient options we have, and the wave serpent also seems a very good choice when it's defensive efficiency is taken into consideration.
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Discussion: Eldar / Re: Thoughts on 8th Edition Aeldari/Ynnari
« Last post by EBomb on Today at 02:39:30 PM »
Great Job!  Thanks for sharing your observations so far.

I have 1 question about running Ynnari.  Do you think you can use the Avatar of Kahine, Drazhar or some Coven units along with some Ynnari units (but obviously not as Ynnari themselves)?  It appears there is no problem mixing Craftworld, Harlequin, and Coven units even in the same detachment by using the Key Word Aeldari.  However, the line about not using Coven etc. units in an Ynnari army makes me wonder if you can't mix in those in an army even though they all still have the key word Aeldari.  Personally, I think it is just saying which units can become Ynnari not which models can be on the table together.

I haven't had a chance to play a game yet.  Hopefully soon.  Looking over the rules though, it seems like a lot of Craftworld units are overpriced for what they can do.  It also seems like Soulburst is quite a bit stronger than Battlefocus.  I can't help but wonder if part of the points increase is for using the models with soulburst instead of battlefocus.

Some of the points costs seem really unusual.  As you mentioned Dire Avengers are too expensive.  Their power level 3 indicate they should cost less than a guardian defender unit not more.  Farseers on Jetbikes are crazy, almost 60 points to put him on a bike.  That is the cost of 2 whole other jetbike guys.  Warlocks are almost as bad at 50 points to put one on a bike, the bike costs more than the Warlock.  That make Autarchs seem almost reasonable at only 40 points until you remember that all of the bike upgrades were only a 15 point upgrade last edition and the bikes were much better (assault move, turbo boost, jink, and 3+ armor).  Combine that with the new psychic phase rules and there is no reason to attempt to run a jetseer council now.

Falcons appear to be about 40 points too much compared to the other tanks and the crimson hunter.  Wraithkinght is about 75 - 100 points too much compared to imperial knights.  Support weapons appear to be way overpriced (127 for a single D cannon) ouch!

Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant at the end.  I'm just having a hard time putting together an army with the models that I like now.  Thanks again for the great rundown!
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A scrumgrod and I have a 1000 point game planed for Sunday. (My first game of 8th edition.)
It's meant to be a learning game and with luck two games of more with some luck.
 
1,000 points Patrol detachment 3 command points (3 base for battle forged.)
999 points
 
HQ
S.A.G. Mek
Big Mek with K.F.F.
 
Troop
Grot Mob 10 models
Boys Mob 30 Models 3 Bigshootas 1 Big Choppa
 
Elite
WAAAGH Banner Nob
Burna Boys Mob 10 models
 
Transport
War Trukk
 
Fast attack
Storm Boys Mob 20 models  1 Power Klaw
 
Heavy Support
Big Gunz 3 Kannons
 
I've made a 500 point list to add to the 1,000 points above. This changes the Patrol to a Battalion
500 points 
Battalion 6 command points
 
HQ
Zagstruk
 
Elites
Nobs Mob 5 models 5 Big choppas
Kommando Mob 5 Models 2 Burnas
 
Troop
Grot Mob 15 models
Battle Wagon 1 model Deff Rolla 2 Big Shootas
 
1,500 points
Some changes in mind. Drop SAG Mek for Weirdboy. Drop 3 Burna boys. Drop 1 Bigchoppa Nob from the Nobs mob.
Dropp the two big Shootas from the Battle Wagon. This nets enough points for two solo Deff Koptas with Kustum Mega Blasters and Bombs.
This also unlocks the outrider detachment. New command point total 7.
Moving up to 2000 points
10 stormboys, these are added to the 20 already listed.
6 Tankbustas
6 tank bustas
1 War Trukk
1 Blitza Bomba.
(This may unlock a 3rd detachment. Vanguard Detachment.) 8 command points (498 points)
 
Lastly I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to add more Nobs by dropping their Big Choppas. that would add 2 more nobs.  (4 points unspent.)
6 unspent points. could be fed back into the Blitza Bomba to trade it for a fully kitted dakka Jet.
I've already changed this list too much.

MY friend mentioned having made several lists already. So I decided to step it up.
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The point of this one is so that you can replace the Storm Bolter with a Shield and still get the Cyclone.  You can't trade the Storm Bolter for a Shield and trade that same Storm Bolter for a Cyclone and Storm Bolter or other heavy weapon.  You've already gotten rid of it.  You won't ever have the extra Storm Bolter in this case because you are taking a Cyclone outside of the 'replace' list.

The Long Fang blah blah can never take a Storm Shield.  It's not in his lists of things to take.  He can take one item from the melee weapons list to replace the sword and a Combi or Heavy weapon.  From a gameplay perspective, this makes sense.  The unit is meant to be shooty and with wound allocation at your choice, the player would tank so many high AP value wounds onto a friggin 3++ model, protecting the whole squad.  I'm sure this was intentional.
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As silly as it is, RAW allows you to do practically whatever you want.  It says you may TAKE a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Weapon, not replace anything for these options.  Look at the vanilla Terminator squad and there they use 'replace'.  So you can have a model with a TH/SS/Cyclone/Storm Bolter or 2x Storm Bolters, Cyclone and Chainfist.  I wouldn't model anything with these weapon options though, cause that's gotta change on codex release.  But, as written, that's how it is right now.
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Back in 7th edition (i.e. less than a week ago), one could tack a Cyclone Missile Launcher onto 1 in 5 Wolf Guard Terminators (that did not already include another heavy weapon).  This means that unlike codex or Blood Angel terminators, a WG terminator could have a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield (or some other combination of weapons) and a CML. 

Can this occur still in 8th edition?  The wording looks similar.  In 7th edition, the unit entry indicated that the storm bolter was "replaced" by a Heavy Flamer or Assault Cannon, but pointedly did not indicate that the CML replaced anything.  It is similar in Index Imperium 1 because the unit entry indicates that a model may "replace" the storm bolter with a weapon from the terminator heavy weapons list or just "take" a cyclone missile launcher (even though the CML+Storm Bolter) is listed in the terminator heavy weapons list.  I assume then that the point cost is identical to the wargear listing and the model is paying a 2 point tax for the non-existent storm bolter (assuming a TH/SS load-out)?

However, the WG pack leader in terminator armour for the Long Fangs only ("only!") has the ability to "replace" his storm bolter for a heavy weapon from the terminator heavy weapons list, which includes the CML+storm bolter.  I take it that this means that for the Long Fang WG Terminator pack leader, the model can only have the CML + Storm Bolter + some melee weapon combo, and not a TH/SS or Wolf Claws + CML?

Thoughts?
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Discussion: Dark Angels / Deathwing and Cyclone Missile Launcher
« Last post by ANevskyUSA on Today at 10:02:43 AM »
In 7th ed, there was a FAQ indicating that one could arm a Deathwing terminator with TH/SS (or a pair of Lightning Claws) and a Cyclone Missile Launcher.  The reason was that the model first replaced all weapons with the TH/SS or 2LC, then added the CML afterwards because the TH/SS and Lightning Claw bullet point was above the CML one.  The wording in and bullet point order in the 8th ed Index: Imperium 1 is the same as in the 7th ed Dark Angels codex.  However, int 7th ed codex wargear list for the Cyclone Missile Launcher lists just the CML with a footnote that reads "does not replace model's storm bolter" (or something like that) whereas the wargear list in Index Imperium 1 lists a "Cyclone Missile Launcher and Storm Bolter" with no footnote. 

My question is this: Can a Deathwing terminator take a TH/SS and a Cyclone Missile Launcher?  Is the only combination possible a Storm Bolter, Cyclone Missile Launcher and Power/Chain Fist?  Or is it something weird like a single Lightning Claw + Storm Bolter + CML (because the storm bolter that comes with the CML will replace one of the lightning claws or just the thunder hammer or just the storm shield)?
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40K Rules Questions / Re: 8th ed questions
« Last post by Eryx_UK on Today at 09:44:18 AM »
Thank you very much.
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Alright I'm starting to get games in, the biggest change is that dunecrawlers are now absolutely essential. Neutron lasers are really one of the only viable anti-tank options if your running skitarii. The arc rifles can help you finish off a wounded vehicle but are otherwise just a shadow of their former selves. However, I would take as many of them as you can if you have the extra points as they will give you a little extra firepower against infantry. The heavy battle servitors are still worth taking but I'm really not sold on the breachers for the points cost. Grav Cannons are still the way to go.
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Discussion: Eldar / Re: Thoughts on 8th Edition Aeldari/Ynnari
« Last post by Chmmr_X on Today at 02:10:12 AM »
Fire Prism
1 word. DISMAL

I had high hopes for the prism but it has disappointed me horribly. The Heavy 1D6, 1D3 and 1  hurt the prism very badly since its shots are too variable, and you still need to roll to hit on top of that. The -1 to hit on the move hurt it even more. It looked good on paper but once tried, it performed badly consistently. I'd suggest to skip it entirely.

Night Spinner
The Night Spinner is another one of those hidden gems that performed better than expected. 2D6 shots at S7 AP Rend-lite and D2, it is actually quite deadly and you dont even need line of sight to shoot your weapon with an impressive range of 48" and at 155 pts. Don't underestimate this baby!

Note: If you are shooting at vehicles that are covered by ruins (at least 50%) from the night spinner, it still gets cover bonus of +1. However, Infantry only get this benefit if they are INSIDE cover. So if they are standing under a building is fully or partially covered by a building, they get no bonus whatsoever but the vehicle next to it gets cover. Weird? Yes it is...

Dark Reapers
They are awesome. Their 2 firing modes make them quite versatile. Heavy 2 S5 AP-2 D2 or Heavy 1 S8 AP-2 D3 is really damaging, especially when the entire unit shoots. They are very accurate too, needing a 3+ to hit at all times despite any modifiers except for overwatch. If everyone else have to hit at 5+, Dark Reapers still hit at 3+. AWESOME!

Having said that, they are fairly expensive. I played them in squads of 5. Furthermore, everyone knows how crazy deadly the Reapers are. Therefore, everybody and their grandmother are going to target their heavy weapons at the Dark Reapers and most likely kill them. Make no mistake, Dark Reapers are FRAGILE.

I'm gonna try running them in Wave Serpents to at least protect them from the Alpha strike so that they can take some time to neutralise or minimize the damage that will come their way later. Or i might even bring them forward along with my other elements to provide close fire support, although I think that this might be suicidal. Worth a try!!

Crimson Hunters
I was at first conned by their 2+ to hit stat only to remember that when they move (which they must), their weapon gets a -1 modifier. Their 2 bright lances and pulse gives you some much needed and realiable anti tank weaponry or hard to dislodge space marines that must be cleared from a ruin. Their reroll to wound against units that can FLY Is a nice icing on the cake. What makes this unit great is that it can get into position because of its speed. The Vector dancer like rules allows you to stay on the board and not be blocked. Like the Windriders, you can even position them to snipe enemy characters. Have a ball doing it!

Hemlock
These guys have improved a lot! Their weapons are heavy D3 auto hit weapons now but rolling 2 1s so far is NOT FUN. I've had the Hemlocks in almost all of my games so far and it's performed quite ok. Even after heavy damage, they still perform fairly well because of the auto-hit nature of its weapons. It's a psychic unit too! I would think Embolden/horrify would be the best combo for it but so far I've not been able to fully utilise this since I've been fighting a lot of vehicles, on top of the fact that whatever I shoot at most of the time dies completely to get its soulburst bonus.

The verdict on the Hemlock is still a head scratcher but I still have hope for its performance.

Wraith Knight
I've only used him once and it performed mediocre, but it's not a fair assessment of it because it was heavily damaged by 1st turn charge of Genestealers thanks to Swarmlord, and it was only my 2nd game. The 2 heavy wraithcanons are very deadly now against other high wound targets since you get 4 shots out of them now.

Other thoughts
Generally, I've found that the point increases for Eldar hurts Eldar quite a lot. I'm rather bitter by the fact that Eldar is being encouraged to sit still and shoot at full efficiency when in the past they are able to move and shoot everything fairly comfortably, which is really against the Eldar way of war. They had always been supposed to be very mobile shooting on the move. Was rather pissed off when a bunch of Imperial players suggested that you are "supposed" to sit still and shoot as it makes more sense to do so to be accurate. Such mon-keigh talk that know nothing about Eldar way of war!

I've found Psychic powers rather hard to rely upon now also because of the 50% failure rate. Chaos and other factions can cast some good powers at lower psychic costs. So much for Eldar being masters of psykers...

Finally, foot Eldar is just very very VERY hard to play. THey die in droves, which is so not the Eldar way of war. Some suggested using Eldar Guardians as meatshields... but such notions are so against Eldar way of fight. At the meantime, I find that a mechanized force for Eldar is the way to go for a competitive list with a fair balance between anti-horde and anti-mech weaponry.

That's it folks. My assessment thus far. Will have more games with different units to see how it works. Post your comments below on your thoughts and your own experiences!

Cheers
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