Author Topic: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition 3.0 July 2016 update  (Read 15604 times)

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Offline Remtek

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Blood Angel unit review 7th edition 3.0 July 2016 update
« on: July 17, 2014, 04:09:42 AM »
7th Edition BA Infantry survivability Most of the new codex is added.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1G-Jodghn_uVJPnDefVboDPK2B5dEBj668t5zywlY-l8/edit#gid=0 New codex unit's added.

July 2016 update
Been able to get some games with the new and updated scouts/dreadnoughts. It's a pretty large boost for casual and semi competitive games, but the real issue with dreadnoughts is really getting them into combat. Still, there are alot more assault lists to play against now compared to 6th and early 7th edition, in many games you don't really need worry about  getting assaults off. If you take one or two dreads they might be somewhat worthless vs shooting list, but they might kill twice their points in other games.  If you are using pods, drop them inside ruins unless you are confident they can do a lot of damage in the shooting phase. It's better that they survive and are hard to kill. Put objectives in spots where you can hide or give cover to walkers. Magma grapple lets you roll 3d6 in terrain and ignore the minus two inches on assaults.

Close combat scouts survive better in assault now, since a lot of stuff dosnt hit them on 3s. And on ocasion they will hit on 3s more as well. Bolter scouts might be an interesting option now. Not a huge fan of sniper scouts backfield, it's usually better to keep them out of los, but all 3 are viable options now. Since you only can use one grenade in close combat, having 15 str 5 attacks on the charge will kill most veichles (5man scout unit). Combi-Grav on sarge is now pretty sweet! Scout dosnt count as movement, so you can infiltrate, scout and shoot a full salvo hitting on 3s.

MVPs

Veritas Vitae - 2 Strategic traits with re-rolls from CAD is actually the strongest single thing in our book with the sanguinary priest in second place. Stealth ruins is such a huge force multiplier and you get 4 attempts at getting it.
Sanguinary Priest - I have been using him on a bike with a JP and on foot. Always happy i bring this one, though i stopped using him with Sanguinary guard, because they tank dakka fine without him and still die fast to grav and str 8 regardless of priest.
New FAQ: Putting him in Iron Hands squads no longer works, as IH loose chapter tactics (BA still keeps FC, but no 4+ fnp on allies)

 
Dante - Many games he will make his points back and then some. Best used in a command squad with meltas, as you don't want the unit too assaulty to utilize hit and run. Usually deployed on the table. FAQ Update: You can put him in a deathstar and give the unit re-roll charge range if you don't use his jump pack in movement phase.
Mephiston - Put him in with a 7-8 man bike squad and a priest. With conga-lining your bikes it will give him 'almost wings'. The long bike base makes piling into combat easier, and jinking t5 bikes with fnp give him inexpensive staying power.
I have been testing him with Hammernators, IG blobs and Centurions. With Centurions and Hammernators he is hit and miss as he lacks an invul save. With hammernators he often becomes redundant and with centurions they unit gets very pricy without having great survivability. Works really well in 40-50 man IG blob. Usually roll on divination, but in fluffy games the BA spells are not that bad and give some good flavor, casting wings on 50 conscripts is quite amusing.


Scouts - Now with the new faq scouts are even better, sniper and bolter scouts are much more viable, i'm still prefer close combat as they work really well for taking out transports (now that you can only use 1 nade i combat). The increase in bs is nice for those grenade tosses as well. WS4 makes them get hit less, which can be really nice.
Cassor the Dammed
He fills the troop slot, is a character which means he can challange and receive quickening power. Vs assaulty lists tactics are not to hard, having some scouts or other infantry nearby to support eachother can help. Try to pile scouts on powerfist so they can't be allocated to Cassor. Vs shooty lists just accept his not going to do that much dmg. Give him the best cover save possible on a key objective. With stealth ruins (veritas) he will often be enjoying a 3+ cover save. Move through cover and fleet vs veichles makes his threat range pretty decent inside a ruin. With a 5+ roll on quickening your at 11 attacks on the charge.

Death Company - I really like having a few 5-7 man units with an axe or fist. I still run the 10-15 man untis with Astorath since it's fun, but they usually just get focused then and don't do much. And they are not the best unit for soaking dmg.
Hammernators - While bad on  paper they fill a important role that we lack, having a solid anchor and answer to Wratih Knights / Imperial knights.  While they are extremly slow, having something solid in the middle of the board can stop many units from running around with impunity. Without them many units can just run up the board. Best used on foot or in a stormraven. IG priests are great giving them Zealot for 25 points and a good chanse of re-rolling saves in close combat. Also inquisitors with rad grenades are nice as they give -1 toughness to models locked in close combat (first round). Instakilling all the t5 units in the meta can be really valuable.
Command Squad A good support unit for Dante, inexpensive feel no pain and quite shooty with meltas.
Assault Squad in a free Rhino I initially thought the drop pod was the way to go with this one, but there are so many lists where they don't do much. A few rhinos with double melta are mobile, give cover and good for picking up objectives.
Multimelta Attack bike Another great unit, easy to hide and a large threat range. Vs non mech lists they are great for tieing things up in combat or grabbing objectives.
Bike Squad See bike squad comments further down under fast.

Forgewold
Forgeworld is much more accepted in general now, and can really help close the gap for BA against more competitive armies.

Quad Mortar - Still experimental rules, but many tournaments allow them now, including the ITC. This artillery piece is amazing, either 4 str8 ap4 tank hunter shots or a heavy 4 barrage at str 5 with pinning (-1 ld). Only costing 60 points taking 3-4 of these will really give some good fire support. Great for taking out IKnigths or popping the overwhelming amount of free gladius transports.
Rules are free here: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/RapierQuadMortar40k.pdf
Sicarian Battle Tank Still good depending on meta. Anti jink counter and with tank hunter legacy its great for popping mech from far away.
Whirlwind Scorpius Amazing tank as you can take the ignore cover legacy. If it doesnt move in movement phase you det 1+d3 str8 ap3 small blasts with ignore cover. With the amount of shrouded and jink going around these days a great tank.
Fireraptor Gunship Finally got this model done and it's pretty good, but we play alot of heavy objective games so i like having more stuff on the ground. Take Dante and he will be coming in on turn 2 very often with reserve re-rolls.

Allies
Dark Angels -  Ravenwing make for good allies as they synergize with Blood Angel playstyle and movement. Sammael is quite good at tanking for any assault unit and gives them a larger charge range.  (you must make sammael your WL to get trait)
Ravenguard - Shrouded trick no longer works due to FAQ, they loose shroueded joined with BA. Shadowstrike kill team still a solid way to support BA and fits well thematically.
Imperial Guard - Blobs are really good for utility. Company command squads can't be taken in pods anymore due to FAQ. Forgeworld earthshakers are 75 points a pop, str9 ap3 large blast with barrage and ordinance. Put yarrick in the artillery unit and give it ignore cover or splitfire.
I'm sure there are many more options, these are few i have tried in more competitive games and tournaments.

Conclusion:
Blood Angels are currently not in a great spot right now for competitive games, but we still have a pretty good internal balance (Except tanks, which is not a BA specific issue). Our strong units really fit best with a MSU playstyle similar to gladius. Our army is not great for tabeling opponents, but we do play to the mission quite well. Forgeworld let's us compete with many competitive list. It's perfectly fine going 3/5 wins with BA in a tournament, but expecting much more is very optimistic. For fluffy or semi competitive games we still have a great book due to good internal balance.

**** End of 2016 update ****


HQ and LoW

Good
Librarian - Cheap and a good primaris makes him fit into many lists. Nothing more to say really, simply point efficient if you want a psyker.
Dante - His statline alone make him worth the points as a beatstick, he gives reserve re-rolls to flyers and skimmer as well nowm, DoA is stronger now. Free tactical trait if your doing Maelstorm.
Sanguinary Priest - Great value, fits very well with terminators, sanguinary guard or even bikes. Go for powerfist/lightning claw combo if you want to give him offensive output, or just leave him barebones.
Mephiston - Moved back to good. Str 10 is getting better and better as T5 units are more and more common. Put him in a 8man bike squad and use it as an anchor unit. See bikesquad for details on how the unit works. Or put him in a IG blob and fish for the 4++ power.


Decent
Chaplain - Only rerolls to hit now and his wargear options are very limiting. Astorath or Libby feel much better, or even a Captain. Gives rerolls when being assaulted now which is a big plus due to zealot (moved from bad to decent.)
Captain - Cheap with flexible options. If your taking a stormshield you might as well give him a bike since str 8 is so common.
Librarian Dreadnought - 7 attacks on the charge with the new faq. Str 10 force is our most efficent solution to a wraith knight other than ignoring it. Put him in a Stormraven and make sure you have re-roll reserves. Or grab a skyshield landing pad.
Brother Corbulo - Pretty good stats per point and the bubble has potential. Only rending though, and can't move 12.
Captain Karl - He is fairly priced for his gear, but moves slow and t4. If you want reserve re-rolls for termies or something he is golden, but Dantes trait is generally better.
Astorath - He has a lot of force multipliers for DC, but large DC blobs are so risky to run. They dont multi charge well and can be evoprated quickly.
Bad
Captain Tycho - Can join DC now if you induct him. Only useful thing about him is the 18" combi melta, simply dosnt do much anymore in terms of buffs or beatstick. Cool model though!
The Sanguinor - Very squishy for his points value, can't join units. The bubble would be nice if he could join units.
Gabriel Seth - He can be good if you are list tailoring vs armies with a lot of 4+ armor save. He is actually pretty cheap for what you get, just not very good in TAC lists.
Techmarine - No point taking this IC really.

Troops

Good
Scouts - Moved up to good, they are really superior to tacticals in every way except a few specific builds where you want to go full drop pods or doing some a specific formation. Now ws/bs4 with the new faq/errata.

Decent

Tacticals - Other then fluff reasons there is really no point in bringing them. Scouts for Troops or Assault marines with if want MEQ with special weapons. If you want heavy flamers, use furioso or normal dread.

Elite

Good
Death Company -Pretty good running as msu with either a fist or axe.

Command Squad - Moved to good. Fairly priced and a gets a free fnp. Can take 3 special weapons. Has some potential with Dante giving him cheap fnp. Overall a fine unit. Usually starts on the table.
Hammernators - See further up the post.
Decent
Fragcannon Furioso - Costs 5 points more, but still solid. Heavy flamer or melta on the side. Very strong overall in a pod. (moved from good to decent)
Sanguinary Guard -
Been able to test them extenisvly now. They are way too hit and miss for my taste. Other than being easy to shoot for many armies, they really don't hold up in close combat against anything with ap2. If you know you are facing Necrons or other armies with little ap2 they can be solid, but they have too many bad mathups. They are actually better without the Sanguinary Priest as the things that kill them either are str 8+ or grav spam. So grav cents will smoke them regardless of fnp, making it hard to justify the 75 point tax. WS5 can be nice, but master crafted is more than enough vs the things they are good at dealing with. Taking 10+ as a star is such a huge liability and having a small footprint makes the threat range much smaller. One of the reaons thunderwolves are so good at deathstaring is having the large footprint. Don't spend more than 165/175 points on them and use them as a disruptive expendable unit.

Dreadnought - I'm a fan of the rifledread still if you can't use Sicarian, don't like any of the other weapon options. 4 twin linked shots at range 48 is great redunancy against a lot of units.
Update: Multimelta-fist is a decent combo now due to having 4 attacks on the charge, or the double heavy flamer variant, but might as well take a fragioso if you want to template things.
Vanguard Veterans Theres a new formation giving them free power weapons, but other than that they don't really have a role. Putting them in decent due to the new formation.
Sternguard Veterans They have a nice alpha, but pricy. Assault marines are better, but in a different slot so can combine them. With SM chapter tactics/formations are actually pretty good, but without re-rolls they just cost to much.

Bad
Lemartes - They actually nerfed an already bad character. No reroll to wound for DC, still ap4 and his crazy mode is toned down. Shame, the model is really nice.
Terminator Squad - Just like all other shooty termies, bad.

Fast

Good
Drop Pod - Because it's a drop pod.
Assault Squad - Great value unit in a pod or rhino. Can take 2 meltas and the sergeant can take his combi or pistols. Can't take Razorbacks now and no longer troops.
Bike Squad - Finally they are fairly priced, great synergi if you take a priest and Dante. White Scar's cant really replicate this combo has it is much more devestating in assault. Jink always, kinda like necrons. This should be a seperate post, but do some math on assaulting and see the survivability spreadsheet at the top.
Attack Bike Squad Awesome unit, melta stuff, grab objectives, charge weak units or get line breaker all for 55 points.

Decent
Rhino - Still has many uses, other than transporting. Remember to use tank shock to move units. Really great at moveblocking things as well.
Razorback - Stil decent, but i'm not seing myself using them in the near future. Feels like you need to spam them or else it will be focused down. Taking the Las/Plas is a no brainer now since base cost went up and upgrade down.
Land Speeder With Dante they only scatter d6 + reserve re-rolls. Pretty nice to option if you want to drop two multi-melta. If you get off some lucky jinks it should prove to be very annoying for the points. Still very contested slot.
Scout Bike Squad No big opionion on them, but since they are so cheap i can't imagine them being bad in Maelstorm if you have left over slots. I won't be building any in the near future though.

Heavy

Good
Stormraven Gunship - Missiles nerfed to ap2, but we get reserve re-rolls with Dante. Having that on flyers is really nice. If your vs another flyer list go second and pick them off one by one. Risky tansporting Meph now due to T5, but still good for Libby dreads or perhaps some close combat scouts, bloodclaw style.

Decent
Dev Squad - Nice firepower per point, but will die quickly in many games. ML's out the window, in with LC's. If you want anit-air take a StormRaven or some FW stuff.
Predator Tri-Las pred seems somewhat viable, but for the time being i'm having trouble fitting them into my lists. Worth taking a look at. They can still be fast.
Whirlwind They are actually not bad. Cheap anti-infantry. I'll still probably never buy one, but for the points you can always hold and objective or tank shock something. Be creative if you take them i guess?
Bad
Baal Predator - Lost scout, but sponsons are 10 points cheaper, i guess that is something. I never seem to make my points back on these, and they usually are not focused, so they don't give me that much. But dakka is nice, and they are fun to play.
Land Raiders - Almost tempted to put them in bad, no longer obsec and did not drop in points. They are simply to expensive for what they do. If playing vs people that can't deal with him they are still great though! Hard to balance this unit. Maybe AV13 all around and cheaper would be a way to go? (moved from decent to bad)
Vindicator With fast they still dropped 10 points, i'm not a huge fan, but most say you need to spam them. I don't like the high variance of those blasts, and pretty much any pen roll will make it useless for atleast one round.  It's also iffy if you play pod armies, due to scatter. I'll take one from time to time for fun.

Relics

Veritas Vitae - Amazing relic as it gives a free strategic trait. Even better in a CAD for re-roll.
Relic JP, reroll reserve, scatter and mishap. Somewhat denies interceptor, but they can still shoot in their turn. (You get to
run/cast wings before they fire is what you get out of it) Can be nice in a Draigo star as it makes gating very reliable.

A crown that gives a fear minus two. Nice vs some armies and pretty cheap, but it's just annoying to remember and kinda pointless.

Psyker staff - You loose ap2/3 but can re-roll ones and get some more str. Not to expensive, and casting spells is not always that easy.
Plasma pistol - plasma pistols are kinda garbage, a polished turd is still a turd.
New ap2 power sword. I can see this being used a lot due to our new init5 detachment and str 5 on the charge. Power Axes models need some reworking now.
Update: Power axe > all other power weapons. Str 5/6 is just more usefull then killing a few at high init. Most of the scary close combat models will survive that sword regardless.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 12:08:27 AM by Remtek »

Offline Blood Muffin

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Re: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition.
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2014, 02:23:18 PM »
this was awesome! good job.
I agreed with almost everything you said
you can put corbulo and meph together?

Offline Remtek

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Re: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition.
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2014, 11:22:35 PM »
Yeah in 7th you can put 2 IC's together. Corbs will receive majority toughness 6 or more (biomancy). But imo Meph is fine alone, and he looses fleet which sucks.

Offline Blood Muffin

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Re: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition.
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2014, 04:33:17 AM »
i think i missed that part in the new rulebook.
do they both have to be IP? cause meph isnt. or its just two characters together?

Offline Bushleague

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Re: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition.
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2014, 12:59:03 PM »
Meph still doesn't have IC....I believe there was some re-writing as to rules for single model units (mainly to nerf the unintended consequence of giving riptides drones IMO), but I'm not 100 sure.

**UPDATE**

Got a chance to look at the IC rules again, it looks like they removed he the restrictions on IC's joining single model units, only specifies MC's and Vehicles...whether or not Mephiston continues to have an Infantry type in the new codex remains to be seen, but for now, he can TOTALLY tag team with Corbulo.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 07:35:15 PM by Bushleague »
"Descend on Wings of Fury, and Scour the Enemy from the Battlefield" - Battle-Captain Janus Shraub, 3rd Company of the Angels of Sirocco, Successors of the 9th Legion.

Offline Remtek

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Re: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition.
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2014, 01:54:44 AM »
Oops, yeah bushleague is correct. Meph is not an IC it's the joining a single character rule. Still i think Meph's surviability is fine, especially with Biomancy. No need to spend even more points.

Offline Bushleague

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Re: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition.
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 06:32:31 AM »
So, not to hijack a unit review post, but I tried out the Tagteam of Meph+Corb last night, and even getting stuck with the worst possible Biomancy powers (hemorage, life leach, and the +3 initiative one) the two of them were insanely durable, and survived a charge from 50+ Orks (roughly 150 attacks).

These two are pretty much an auto include now.
"Descend on Wings of Fury, and Scour the Enemy from the Battlefield" - Battle-Captain Janus Shraub, 3rd Company of the Angels of Sirocco, Successors of the 9th Legion.

Offline Remtek

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Re: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition.
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2014, 03:38:56 PM »
So, not to hijack a unit review post, but I tried out the Tagteam of Meph+Corb last night, and even getting stuck with the worst possible Biomancy powers (hemorage, life leach, and the +3 initiative one) the two of them were insanely durable, and survived a charge from 50+ Orks (roughly 150 attacks).

These two are pretty much an auto include now.

Post away! It's great to get some feedback frome actual playtesting. Some of the unit impressions are only theoretical. If there is something anyone disagrees with please leave some feedback so we can get a discussion going.

Had 4 games since the unit review. 2 best unit comps both include a Stormraven, either with Furioso or Meph. Getting a very likely assault turn 3 is just so key. Been lucky with reserve rolls, trying to get the reroll reserve warlord trait is a must with alot of points in reserve. The Land Raider i have mixed feelings with, it seems to pop turn 2 alot of the time, but the math is good vs 2 melta shots, might be bad dice. I'll keep fielding them with DC and see how it continues. Though i have tried Rhinos now and like them, more of a distraction unit then;

Another very strong unit have been Death Company in Rhino. 10 bolt pistol DC with one PF. I usually just go flatout turn 2 into enemy deployment and have it soak firepower. If opponent is forced to take it out in assault, perfect i can assault next round. If it pops in shooting they still are pretty tanky for the points. It lets the rest of my units breathe a round, and since they can't score i kinda want them to die first. Key is to not make the unit to expensive in a rhino. Also if it blows up alot of units will be assaulting at init 1 (necrons,ors,nids etc) and they still have 30 attacks when getting charged.

It's quite amazing how much a rhino can potentially tank now compared to 6th edition.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 03:40:56 PM by Remtek »

Offline Blood Muffin

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Re: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition.
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2014, 06:00:04 AM »
So, not to hijack a unit review post, but I tried out the Tagteam of Meph+Corb last night, and even getting stuck with the worst possible Biomancy powers (hemorage, life leach, and the +3 initiative one) the two of them were insanely durable, and survived a charge from 50+ Orks (roughly 150 attacks).

These two are pretty much an auto include now.
How did you get Mephiston and Corbulo into the fight?

Offline Bushleague

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Re: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition.
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2014, 08:13:45 AM »
had some help from  the infiltrator warlord trait footslogged them in, assaulted one group of boyz on turn 2, the other two assaulted into the initial fight on his turn 3. since the two models have such a small footprint, at most you're looking at having 15~ enemy models engaged with you and able to attack, and you're reliably killing 5+ a turn. My buddy rolled two results on the mob rule after failing his Ld check for combat which would have the boyz flee and get cut down, but bosspoles (i think?) let him re roll the result....I so nearly killed 50 orks in one combat. would of been epic
"Descend on Wings of Fury, and Scour the Enemy from the Battlefield" - Battle-Captain Janus Shraub, 3rd Company of the Angels of Sirocco, Successors of the 9th Legion.

Offline Blood Muffin

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Re: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition.
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2014, 11:19:25 AM »
yea your right with the bosspole (orks is my second army)

I was thinking about running this combo just on foot as well just to make good of corbulos 2+ fnp and the best thing about this combo is that he Fnp cant just be ignored with s8 weapons

Offline Bushleague

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Re: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition.
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2014, 11:38:15 AM »
Corbulo still won't be able to use his FNP on str 8'wpns, even if Mephiston rolls up endurance to give eternal warrior. I cross referenced everything, so here's the summary (with paraphrasing): under the rules for wounding a unit, a weapon is treated as having the instant death USR if it's str is twice the toughness value of the model suffering a wound. Instant death USR means that instead of causing a single wound, the model suffering the wound is reduced to 0 wounds. Eternal warrior states that if the model is wounded by something causing instant death, simply reduce its Wound by one instead. FNP specifically mentions not being able to use it to prevent ID wounds and wounds from d weapons.

It hinges on eternal warrior only making you lose a wound, instead of making the model immune to ID. 

Just run corbulo on point and have Mephiston "look out sir" any str 8/9 shots, he'll pass on a 2+, and god forbid you fail that far seeing eye can let you re-roll it. If you snake eyes it, my condolences, the dice gods are laughing at you.
"Descend on Wings of Fury, and Scour the Enemy from the Battlefield" - Battle-Captain Janus Shraub, 3rd Company of the Angels of Sirocco, Successors of the 9th Legion.

Offline Remtek

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Re: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition.
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2014, 04:16:40 PM »
Since the unit is only 2 models with different toughness values the majority toughness of the unit will use Mephistons (since its rounded up when there is a draw)  If Corb is in a challenge he will use his own toughness value.

If you crash in a Stormraven i believe he does not receive majority toughness on the str10 hit, not sure on this one though, but i think each hit is done individually.

Offline Angelic

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Re: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition. (Updated 15th October)
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2014, 04:22:25 PM »
NEW CODEX GUYS!!!

UPDATE?! ^^
The Dance Without End Begins..

Offline Remtek

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Re: Blood Angel unit review 7th edition. (Updated 15th October)
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2014, 02:40:08 PM »
Waiting for rumors to be confirmed.. :)