Author Topic: Question about tournament lists  (Read 992 times)

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Online Warseer_Kaelrich

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Question about tournament lists
« on: June 14, 2016, 04:53:25 PM »
While I've only played a single game , a demo game even before I continue, I have done a bit of research I to the nids for both painting purposes as well as dark heresy starlings.  So my first question. Is, why is it that 3 to 6 flying hive tyrants are the only competitive lists for 7th ed. Ive came up with a list (1850) that could give any opponent really a run for their money based off fielding a ton of threats and capitalizing on my opponent's choices.

Am I trying to play nids hard mode? I just don't see how an entire army can henge on a bunch of flying monstrous creatures.

I have to keep this short for now but when i get time I will post my list and see what you all think about it, until then please let me in on the tournament player's mindset for nids.

Online SharkoutofWata

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Re: Question about tournament lists
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2016, 08:40:16 PM »
The game is broken into three main abilities that either make or break a unit.  Movement, attack power, survivability.  If you look at some of the best units in the game, you'll see that they are good at all three of these things, or amazing at two of them and have an option for the third. 

An Eldar Jetbike: moves 12", boosts another 24" or 36" I don't remember, has four S6 shots with a Scatter Laser, has a cover save of 4+ whenever it needs it and a basic armor save of 3+ and as an added bonus, they're Troop choices so get Objective Secured. 
Eldar Wraithknight: moves 12", T8 with an Armor Save and Feel no Pain, has D weapons. 
Tau Riptides: move-shoot-move ability, 2+ Armor, 5+ invulnerable that can be a 3+.  Options for FNP, S7 AP3 or better guns, options for Skyfire, Interceptor and a few other ways to counter opponents directly.
Space Wolf Thunderwolf Calvary: moves 12", 3+ Invulnerable save, T5 so only doubled out by D and S10, S10 weapons and often helped out by psykers for Invisibility and occasionally ally shenanigans for FNP, Ignores Cover and other cheesy additions.

These are all the cream of the crop, and yes there's others but that's the idea there.  So for comparison's sake, let's look at the pillars of Tyranids.  Hive Tyrant, Carnifex, Tyrannofex and even Warriors.
Flyrant: 12-18" movement, must be hit by the enemy on a 6 if they don't have Skyfire, 12 S6 shots, 11 hit per average round of shooting, S5 Template with Haywire and psychic powers, doesn't have Eternal Warrior but can't be assaulted with Force in the air.
Carnifex: moves 6", 18" guns.  Small threat bubble really.  T6, still can be wounded by Bolters, 3+ armor and no way to improve it or get better armor and no way to get FNP other than a psychic power.  Dies in one hit to anything with Instant Death like a Librarian's Force Staff.
Tyrannofex: Almost the exact same stats, but 2+ Armor.  S10 gun that misses half the time.  Instant killed by a Force weapon or D weapon.
Warriors: move 6", S5 three shot guns, options for AP3 in Assault.  3 Wounds.  That would be a good unit in Survivability and Attack power but, T4.  Instant Killed by a Lascannon or anything above S8.  Lascannon aims, wounds on 2+, remove a model.  That makes them a bad unit.

Now, that's the individual units in comparison.  Tyranids are lacking with every other unit but that Flyrant.  So then strategy is the next best thing.  75 point Drop Pods?  No point since the units in them would just be inferior.  Walking across the table with a butt-ton of threats?  Focus fire the only ones that matter and be done with it.  200pts of Guard can and will kill 400pts of Nids if built properly and with a bit of luck.  Tau won't need luck.  So you can't walk and can't drop in, so you have to do something else.  And while every other army but Daemons has the option to put their guys in cheap transports and cross the table, Tyranids don't have that option.  We feel every shot and remove models, so we have to plan for that which means more points.  If you want a fully healthy Carnifex to make it across table, you need another to die horribly.  If you want 15 gaunts to live, you need atleast 25.  That gets expensive fast.  Infiltrate!  Lictors.  Now what's going to Infiltrate with them?  Genestealers are absolute garbage.  Price of a Marine but can't charge through cover without tripping over and 5+ armor is nothing.  Literally nothing.  They're great in Zone Mortalis but anything without endless line of sight blockers and hallways they are bad, and tournaments will not be Zone Mortalis unless advertised as such.  So then, Mawlocs.  Mawlocs are great.  Ignores Cover, hits in the movement phase.  That means nothing the enemy has but Flyers are safe from it.  Warp Spiders die, Bikes die, everything dies.  A great unit, and nice and cheap.

So the list is now Flyrants, Lictors, Mawlocs.  No point in Troops so we take the Mucolid Spores.  15pt Troops.  Venomthrope or Malanthrope for Turn 1 protection before the Flyrants fly away and protect themselves.  That's the traditional Tyranid list, especially in Tournaments.  When you see your Carnifex get taken down by a couple Plasma guns, or when you see your gaunts get systematically slaughtered by TWC or Dark Angels, you just stop bringing them.  Biovores are good against Daemons, not good against Marines, so you don't bring them.  Exocrine is too slow and dies immediately to Tau, so you don't bring it.  Every other choice in the codex fails in one blindingly obvious way or another, so they don't have a place in competitive.  Competitive is ruthless and you have to be able to make a list that does just as well against Skyhammer as it does against Imperial Knights and just as well against Eldar Scatbikes and Wriathknights.  If it can't survive and win against all of those lists consistently, it's not a good enough tournament list.  This is why I never committed to a tournament build.  I don't like that side of the game or the limited Tyranid codex.

Offline Voodoogrin

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Re: Question about tournament lists
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2016, 01:08:13 AM »
Beautifully and sadly put, Shark.  In a nutshell:

Tyranids can no longer field enough durable threats to place any lasting damage on the enemy.

UNLESS they field as many Hive Tyrants as they can stick on the board and abuse the FMC rules.  Sells a lot of Hive Tyrant models, but makes for a fairly boring army.  I'd love to to see someone prove this wrong though.

One last thing - painting a small army consisting mostly of Hive Tyrants is way more time efficient that painting 100+ gaunts.  One other selling point! :)

Offline SpaceBugzz

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Re: Question about tournament lists
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2016, 03:50:09 AM »
Honestly I think with the surge towards "alpha-strike" builds such as Space Marine Drop Pod spam, bringing dakka fexes with 3 Flyrants is pretty good. A lot of ITC Events and GT's are heavily focused on objectives so if you don't have objective secured units such as nice healthy gaunt units, then you might have a hard time. In addition the combinations they are talking about are the best on paper, but in the hands of a skilled and experienced player, an average or sub-par list can be deadly. Personally I think that Malanthropes are the best Tyranid unit for their points. Utilizing Malanthropes to increase survivability of masses of bodies is still effective in my opinion. I think the best way to play bugs currently is to figure out a way to get as many models as possible in your opponents face by turn 3 (Null Deployment). Basically drop the majority of your army on your opponent with deep striking units and drop pods. 3-4 Flyrants, Drop pods with infantry (maybe devourer gaunts), Trygon Primes (for the 12 strength 5 shots), and Mawlocs. May want to include Sporefield Formation and a couple Lictors to guide everything in.