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Messages - Odras

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Discussion: Eldar / Re: Seeking some advice on Eldar
« on: December 11, 2017, 07:26:06 PM »
Dark Reapers are always a great addition to any force, although don't really fit the mobile hit and run style. If you are after the mobile hit and run side of DE does that mean you want everything in vehicles or on Jetbikes? It would help if you gave an idea of what you were intending on bringing for the DE side of your army and how much Eldar you were looking to add.

I have seen a DE army recently combine very well with a detachment of harlequins as they fit the mobile hit and run side a bit better than the Eldar in my opinion. I'll be possibly playing against this guy in a tournament this weekend so I will let you know how his army goes. From memory his army is venoms + harlequins in starweavers + 3 Ravangers.

When you say linked prisms, are you referring to the Linked Fire strategem which gives them rerolls? Also does this include them firing twice with pulsed laser discharge?

This table is here mainly to demonstrate a principle that new players sometimes have trouble understanding: cost and durability are inversely proportional to one another.
Yes, the number of times I have had to explain this.

Great post, hopefully I will have a chance to do some more soon when I get some time off work.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: Ynnari Strategies Post Nerf
« on: November 20, 2017, 08:16:19 PM »
During 7th edition, at a large tournament (AdeptiCon), the following issue arose due to the mechanical instability inherent in the SfD/Soulburst rules: During DEPLOYMENT (so, pre-game), a Genestealer Cult unit deploying in accordance with its quirky rules destroyed an Ynnari unit that was within 7" of a Wraithknight. The Ynnari player wanted to Charge during which point the game breaks. I suppose you don't have to arrive at the same conclusion that I arrived at, which is that SfD/Soulburst was not properly described (parameters/limitations/triggers/conditionals) as written.

I agree, in 7th edition it was fairly unclear, and even in 8th edition at first it was unclear. Pre-nerf 8th edition though, I thought  it was actually very clear when you got to soulburst and what you got to do. The only people that had problems were those that hadn't read the rules properly. Admittedly you did have to go to about 3 different places to get all those rules, but they were there and it was quite clear.

To me this is not a justification for the nerf even if it was very unclear. It could be fixed with some clarification, which is what they have done since 8th edition launched.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: Ynnari Strategies Post Nerf
« on: November 17, 2017, 11:05:48 PM »
so let me get this right. Since you can only do (1) of the 4 strength from death powers. You are better taking a patrol detachment with Yvaine , cheap troop and wraithguard, run them up in a wave serpent. Hop out, and you get to shoot normally first once, kill a unit, use strength from death again, to shoot again. Then pretty much thats it a turn. As long as its a wrathguard type unit thats probably still ok, but you just cant do it army wide anymore.

am i correct?

Not quite, with the FAQ you are now limited to one of each soulburst action in your turn, therefore you can soulburst up to 5 times but you can only do each of the allowed actions once. So one soulburst and shoot, one soulburst and move, one soulburst and fight, one soulburst and psychic power, one soulburst and charge.

The out-of-phase actions mechanic was problematic in more than one way, you can expect any future iteration of SfD to NOT allow for acting in the opponent's turn--or maybe just once, for CPs, like an intercept Stratagem or something. This part of the nerf hurts, and it is a massive correction, but it's necessary.
Why do you think this correction was necessary? To me it was completely unnecessary, both on the internet and locally where I play I saw very little complaint about soulburst. Yea sure if you were able to set up a nice combo then it could destroy half of someones army, but there is so many of those combos in this game that this one doesn't feel any worse than.

Discussion: Eldar / Ynnari Strategies Post Nerf
« on: November 17, 2017, 02:48:14 AM »
I think salty is an understatement at the moment. I have played exclusively Ynnari since they came out as they really closely represented my view of the Eldar(Aeldari) race as a whole and this nerf has in my opinion completely gutted them as a faction. However complaining on the internet isn't going to get me anywhere so I thought I would ask you guys your thoughts on the Ynnari after we rolled a 1 to save against the nerf bat.

Will you still use them?
If you are using them, how are you using them?
What are you changing from how you previously ran them?

My thoughts are that yes they can still be used, but more as an add-on to a craftworld army rather than as an army of their own. I am thinking at this point in time I will run the Yncarne + 10 wraithguard (D-scythes, single squad) + whatever else I need to make up my detachment. I think the key with Ynnari now will be running large squads to get the most out of limited soul bursts. The problem with running a large wraithguard squad with D-Sccythes is how to get them to the enemy. They can't take a serpent and they probably won't survive the walk across the board so that leaves webway strike. The only option I can see is dropping them in and attempting to cast quicken on them to get them in range, but relying on a WC7 power to go off for my 450 point unit to be able to do something isn't an idea I really relish.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: NEW FAQ & YNNARI NERF
« on: November 17, 2017, 01:03:32 AM »
While I haven't had a chance to test these changes, from a lot of experience playing Ynnari since they were released this change completely decimates their chances of playing as a competitive army. From what was said on the community site, it looks like the reason for this change was the Ynnari were too good compared to the other Eldar factions, however with what they have done there is still no choice, the decision is still as much of a no brainer as it was before the result is just different. Why take Ynnari now, and if you do why take any more than a single small detachment with only a couple of units?

My hope is that they have advanced knowledge of something in chapter approved / Ynnari codex that allows this change to make some more sense. The really annoying part is that we have to wait till that is released and worry that it might not even make it better.

While I still think they are bad, I did find a use for my warlock. I have a nicely painted warlock on jetbike that I took purely for that reason, but during the couple of games I played I found that the jetbikes movement was quite good at allowing me to get key debuffs on my oponant and avoid some chances for my oponant to deny my warlocks powers. The additional wound for being on the jetbike also saved me from a perils once too, although the increased points cost for this is not really justified.

TLDR: Not an optimal choice no matter how you look at it, but can be made to work in some situations.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: Back on the Eldar hype train!
« on: November 09, 2017, 06:48:51 PM »
Not 100% sure which way I want to go as a tournament list its either Ynnari or Alaitoc. I'm looking for advice for those that have played games :)

Looking at the codex, Dark Reapers seem like they're the stand out unit, I also think deep striking Wraithguard could be very nasty!
What are peoples first impressions of the codex?   

If you are looking the strongest list possible I thonk that Ynnari is still the best option. I would suggest Ynnari + 1 craftworld detachment to allow you to unlock the stratagems from the Craftworld codex though.

In my opinion, the strongest option is a combination of Wave Serpents, Wraithguard and Dark Reapers with a scattering of psykers to fill HQ slots and support. Both the Yncarne and Yvraine are strong characters that can be used to unlock the Ynnari. Have a look at the list thread if you want to see an example of a list I am running.

I have recently changed my mind about some of the Eldar troops. In the same list thread mentioned above, TheMattler convinced me of how deadly it could be dropping 40 guardians in via a webway portal. Two things my fairly elite list is not very good at is dealing with large numbers of infantry and screening out opponents. A large number of guardians would do both of these quite well. I haven't yet worked on a list that incorporates this and there are a few decisions to make, such as do I take them as Ynnari for more killing power, or do I take them as Iyanden to keep them around longer.

While even with the Eldar codex you can't just take anything and be reasonably competitive, there is still a large range of things that can be made to work in a competitive army list. The stratagems are quite well done in my opinion for allowing this.

I agree with this. However, you have to be very careful that the transport only carries units only from its own Craftworld, you cannot say, put a Biel Tan Guardian Squad into an Ulthwe Transport. Just be aware about it. This kinda stops you from mixing and matching things everywhere... (Although your list illustrates this well enough that you don't have that problem)

Yes this can be a bit of a trap. You have to remember that the <Craftworld> keyword is just a placeholder and that your chosen <Craftworld> keywords restrict you in what you can do if you want to mix and match.

I like it, especially what you're doing with the Supreme Command detachment.  I might be able to comment more in depth if you describe your typical deployment, battle plan, and preferred Strategem.  Looking at your list made me think of a decent reason to choose Atlantic on a Wave Serpent: if you are using Ynnari, you can put Yvraine and 10 Dark Reapers in an Alaitoc Wave Serpent.  It's slightly better turn 1 protection when going 2nd, making it more likely that you can get absurd value out of those Reapers.  You might end up having to redeploy with Phantasm, though, if your opponent realizes what's going on.

I have only played 2 games with this list post Eldar codex, but I did also play a similar list before the codex. My past list was only 1 spiritseer, only 3 squads of wraithguard all with D-Scythes, but 14 Dark Reapers instead of 12. The wave serpents also used to have star engines and spirit stones too. Only 2 detachments, Vanguard + Spearhead.

The following is my normal thinking before a game:
  • Do they have deepstrikers?
  • Are they likely to castle up in one part of their deployment to avoid my wraithguard serpents?
  • Do I have first turn?

The key stratagems I use are Phantasm, Lightning Reflexes, Webway Portal, Forewarning.

Phantasm is often used to make up for the slightly less range my wave serpents have now I don't have points for Star Engines, I want to guarantee that any wraithguard still alive are doing their D-Scythe Ynnari thing by turn 2. I have considered using this to bait out some bad positioning from my opponent with a poorly placed wave serpent but generally find it not worth the use of CP.

Lightning Reflexes is to keep my wave serpents alive better, either combining with Vectored engines if I go first or to get -1 to hit if I go second. I found in both my games that thinking carefully about when I use lightning reflexes plays with my opponents thinking.

If they have deep strikers that are likely to go after my dark reapers I will leave my farseer behind with the reapers, take guide instead of executioner and use Forewarning to protect them from deepstrikers.

Most of the time I use webway portal to drop the squad of wraithguard with wraithcannons and shoot something big. I normally drop them down the same turn that I unload my other wraithguard to maximise the threats that the opponent has in their face. The three spiritseers are quite often nearby so sometimes I use the stratagem to extend their aura to ensure the wraithcannons hit.

My general strategy with the list is to use the wraithguard and serpents all together as a big deathball that focuses on killing as much as possible and maximising soulburst opportunities while the reapers are long range fire support focusing on the biggest threats to the wraiths with support psykers for each group. Normally 1 spiritseer with conceal, and Yvraine stays with the reapers, while 2 spiritseers with quicken / restrain and protect / jinx along with the farseer with executioner and doom goes with the wraiths. Farseer stays behind if I am worried about deep strike. I use the small reaper squads as both soulburst bait and deepstrike denial often placing them in unfavourable positions to do so. Depending on the army I am facing, I sometimes place the wraithcannon wraithguard on the table to both prevent deepstrikes and as a deterrence to my oponants big things even if I don't actually kill anything.

As you identified in your post this list has 2 main weaknesses, going second and capturing spread out objectives. The wraithguard are much less effective when spread out and the reapers are generally not moving much from where they start.  When I go second, I have found I use at least 4 command points of lightning reflexes and probably one to re-roll a 1 and prevent my wraithguard dying when their transport dies. I like your idea of 9 shining spears and a novalance Autach.

In general I have not really found a need to protect Yvraine and the Dark Reapers first turn, although I can see that against some armies that might be a good idea.

Awesome post as always Mattler.

I have been trying to explain a lot of those things, particularly with the psychic powers and warlocks to people since the codex dropped. Yes the powers look good, and yes warlocks appear cheap, but they are both very risky things.

It is the same as last edition, if you spend X number of points psykers to buff your units or debuff your enemy you are almost always better off having spent those points buying more of your key units than you are buffing them. The psykers are good, but only taken as needed to fill your detachments, not as the key to your army doing damage.

Put the Scytheguard in a Wave Serpent (both Ulthwe) with Vectored Engines
I agree, finally someone else who says to take your serpents as Ulthwe rather than Alaitoc. I have been shot down several times since the codex launched for pointing out that Ulthwe is probably a better bonus for wave serpents who are transporting something.

Regarding the detachments, I'd definitely recommend a Brigade if you can manage it, but a Battalion + 2 Vanguard/Outrider/Spearhead is good for more specialized forces.  Air Wing too, which is almost certainly going to be Alaitoc.
Interesting opinion there, I still find our troops not worth taking even after the codex. I don't see the extra command points being worth taking a minimum of 3 troops choices. My 2000 point list is 6 command points no troops.

I would also be interested on your opinion of Ynnari vs craftworld since the codex. I personally feel Ynnari are still better, when taken with a single detachment of craftworld Eldar in order to unlock the stratagems.

My current list for those interested:

Ulthwe Supreme Command Detachment: (Forsight of the Damned)
Wave Serpent - 3 Shuriken Cannons, Vectored Engines
Wave Serpent - 3 Shuriken Cannons, Vectored Engines
Wave Serpent - 3 Shuriken Cannons, Vectored Engines

Ynnari, Ulthwe Vanguard Detachment:
Yvraine (Warlord)
Wraithguard - D-Scythes
Wraithguard - D-Scythes
Wraithguard - D-Scythes
Wraithguard - Wraithcannons

Ynnari, Ulthwe Spearhead Detachment:
3 Dark Reapers - Reaper Launchers
3 Dark Reapers - Reaper Launchers
6 Dark Reapers - Reaper Launchers

Total: 1998 Points, 6 Command Points

Discussion: Eldar / Re: 8th Ed Eldar - Warhosts of the Asuryani
« on: October 31, 2017, 12:11:33 AM »
Asuryani is the general term that is applied to what we used to know as Eldar, know known as craftworld eldar. It is the equivalent of Drukhari or Harlequin. No harlequins or dark eldar models have the asuryani keyword. This is distinct from the <craftworld> keyword which can change for different Eldar models wheras they all have the Asuryani keyword.

When it comes to Ynnari, yes you can cast runes of battle powers on Ynnari Eldar models. The key with Ynnari is they gain the Ynnari keyword in addition to the keywords they already have. This is how the keywords work:

Craftworld Eldar --> Asuryani
Dark Eldar --> Drukhari
Harlequin --> Harlequins
Ynnari Craftworld Eldar --> Asuryani + Ynnari
Ynnari Dark Eldar --> Drukhari + Ynnari
Ynnari Harlequin --> Harlequins + Ynnari
Ynnari Character (Yvraine, Visarch, Yncarne) --> Ynnari

Discussion: Eldar / Re: New codex 8th ed incoming... share the gossip
« on: October 22, 2017, 07:31:49 PM »
I am happy with the power level I see from the Eldar codex released so far. I am still a little bit concerned that Ynnari is still going to be the way to go, even without the craftworld bonuses but overall it is still looking good.

I am looking forward to doing some more mathhammer posts once the codex is out.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: New codex 8th ed incoming... share the gossip
« on: October 17, 2017, 11:50:31 PM »
Last weekend I had to face 12 Astra Militarum tanks. No infantry! 60 wounds of Toughness 8. Sure.. I didnt know I was going to face is and I had a fairly 'balanced list'... So double shooting for half moves and reroll multiple dice for catachan rules... was brutal and I conceded 'half way' through turn 2.

Beating this is actually quite easy, if you bring the 10% of Eldar units that are viable at the moment. I played a mech guard a week or 2 ago and found them quite easy to beat.

My 2000 point list was:
15 Wraithguard with D-Scythes
3 Wave Serpents with Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines and Star Engines
14 Dark Reapers split into units of  3, 3 and 8.

If you want to bring some more variety in your Eldar army you will have difficulty winning against a lot of things at the moment. 

I didn't get an exact list from the guard player because it was just a pick up game, but he had a large number of tanks (I don't remember the exact number), a couple of heavy weapon squads (I think they were heavy weapon squads) and fortification that consisted of 2 turrets that shot at the closest target with a large number of shots but only BS5+.

The main talking points of the battle were:
  • Me getting first turn, without it my wave serpents are a lot easier to kill. Although if I minimise drops I only have 6 drops.
     So I most often get the +1
  • Him choosing to bunch all his tanks up together, we talked afterwards and we both came to the conclusion that it would have been better for him to spread out his tanks to make it more difficult for me to trigger soulburst on the wraithguard.
  • I rolled pretty well for my turn 2 shooting. I had 70 hits with my 3 squads of wraithguard in a single turn. (All managed to trigger soulburst and I rolled 3 3s, 2 2s and a 1 for their number of shots, using my command re-roll) I killed 1 tank in turn 1, and 6 tanks + his 2 turrets in turn 2.
  • Focus firing more at my wave serpents. He killed one serpent in his first turn, but did not have any shooting left to shoot the wraithguard that came out. He wasted a few shots early to put a couple of wounds on each of the other serpents.
  • Placement of objectives was key. We were playing a combined mission of maelstrom (3 cards per turn) + eternal war, 6 objectives worth 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 4 points each. The objectives were placed with a group of 4 of them close to each other in / just in front of his deployment and one in each corner of the board in my deployment. The 4 of them being grouped there encouraged him to bunch his tanks up around them, which was exactly where I wanted my wraithguard and my reapers bunched around one of the other ones.
After my turn 2, he conceded but we did play it out and I tabled him during his turn 4 when he killed one of the wraithguard squads and triggered a soulburst sequence which let the other 2 squads kill his last 2 tanks.

Mech guard, while they have gotten better are still not that great. I am much more afraid of the guard players who bring a large blob of infantry, surrounding some artillery units with good shooting and a whole heap of drop squads.

I forget where I read it but someone stated it perfectly, Eldar in the index are an 80/20 codex. They are competitive if you take the 20% of the units that are good, but units from the 80% are basically a waste of points. While it will never be perfect with you able to take anything to be competitive (and in doing so would ruin the fun of list building) my biggest hope for the codex is to move that 80%/20% to closer to 50%/50% at least.

Secondly if they are going to balance our army based on stratagems / give us cool stratagems I really hope that they improve our troops, as it is quite hard for us to get many command points at the moment. My list above has 5 which won't be enough if they bring in some cool 3 point stratagems.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: 8th Edition Mathhammer #1 - The Wraithknight
« on: September 14, 2017, 08:53:53 PM »
I don't see it anywhere in the article, if i missed it , I am sorry.  Did you use the updated damage for the starcannons in these calculations?

No this was done with the old starcannons damage value, starcannons are now rubbish. I will at some point update these calculations but my motivation to do it is low since I don't use wraithknights in games at the moment and potentially everything could change when our codex comes out.

I was starting to write up another one of these articles for some of our heavy weapon platforms but when the codex was announced I decided to leave it till after that.

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