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Topics - Celerior

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Discussion: THE LIST / 2000 Astra Militarum (mostly) tourney list
« on: July 25, 2017, 11:26:22 AM »
One battalion and one brigade detachment, rearranged by battlefield role:

1st wave: The skirmishers.
Scout sentinel, heavy flamer
Scout sentinel, heavy flamer
Space marine scout squad
Space marine scout squad
Space marine scout bike squad (Raven guard, if it matters)

Their role is to start in possession of the midfield, to prevent turn 1 deep strikes from threatening the body of my army with turn 1 assaults. I expect to go second each game, but if I manage to seize the initiative, they can do some damage and maybe tie up a couple of things in assaults.

Wave 2: The tide
Conscripts (50)
Conscripts (50)
Commissar, plasma pistol
Company commander

This group's job is to charge up the board against elite gunline armies, forcing them to shoot them or else get tied up permanently in assault instead of shooting the more valuable things behind them. Against enemy assault or deep strike armies, these are the bubble wrap for turn 2 and hopefully 3. Against horde armies, these guys should be mowing the hordes down. Against well-armored gunlines, I'd be using my orders to move the conscripts twice. Against hordes, I'd be shooting double, and against assault armies, I'd be shooting despite falling back.

Wave 3: The big guns.
Sergeant Harker
Infantry squad, plasma gun, lascannon
Infantry squad, plasma gun, lascannon
Infantry squad, plasma gun, lascannon
Infantry squad, plasma gun, lascannon
Heavy weapons team, 3 heavy bolters
Heavy weapons team, 3 heavy bolters
Heavy weapons team, 3 mortars
Command squad, 4 sniper rifles
Sabre weapons platform: defensive searchlight
Sabre weapons platform: defensive searchlight

This group brings the slow, grinding firepower. It's hard to silence these plasma guns and lascannons when they come with 8 ablative wounds, a commissar to keep the morale losses low, and a horde of conscripts about to assault you if you're a shooty army, and bubble wrapping these squads if you're an assault army. If it seems to you like there's not enough here, you're right. Here comes the rest...

Wave 5: The ambush
Tempestor prime, command rod
Tempestor prime, command rod
Tempestor prime, command rod
Tempestus command squad, 4 plasma guns
Tempestus command squad, 4 plasma guns
Tempestus command squad, 4 meltaguns
Tempestus scion squad, plasma pistol and 2 plasma guns
Tempestus scion squad, plasma pistol and 2 plasma guns
Tempestus scion squad, plasma pistol and 2 meltaguns

(That's all the plasma guardsmen I own.) Their purpose is to take down key tough enemy targets, and perhaps buy the conscripts one more turn to rush enemy gunlines.

Wave 6: Backfield characters and redundancy
Commissar (the 3rd)
Company commander (the 2nd)
4 more Astropaths (numbers 2-5)

First of all, if my opponent fields snipers, its these guys job to take up their fallen comrades' job. Secondly, it's their job to deny my opponent anywhere in my backfield to deep strike. At every point in the game, my opponent should be unable to deploy deep strikers behind my lines, only facing my leading wave (usually composed of conscripts). Of course the enemy may bring flyers and snipe them by flying over my lines... and that's what my scions can hit, along with my "big guns" wave.

The whole is hopefully greater than the sum of its parts. An enemy needs to have snipers or flyers to deep strike in a useful way, but also needs horde control to actually win the objective game. With 2000 points replacing 1850 at tournaments, infantry cheaper, and the board still 4x6 feet, the idea is to dominate the limited dimensions of the table, tie up non-flying vehicles, and use raw numbers to control the board and therefore the objectives. My biggest concern would be an enemy horde army that doesn't rely on deep strike. Say, 300 conscripts or 300 boyz.

Discussion: THE LIST / 1500 Astra Militarum list and battle result
« on: July 03, 2017, 09:03:44 AM »
Over the weekend I played a 1500 point pick up game against a blood angel player. I can't call this a battle report because it wasn't a battle, it was a massacre.

Tempestus command squads are dirt cheap and NASTY. Opponents MUST have an answer. Deep strike generally has gotten way better.

My list:

Company commander x1
{Tempestor prime, command rod} x3

{Infantry squad, sniper, lascannon} x4
{Infantry squad, sniper, missile launcher} x2
Conscripts (41 bodies)
Conscripts (35 bodies)

Commissar with plasma pistol
{Tempestus command squad) x2
{Tempestus command squad, 4 melta guns} x2
{Tempestus command squad, 4 plasma guns} x2
{Astropath} x2
{Command squad, 4 snipers} x2 (Now only one is legal after the FAQ, but I hadn't read it yet.)

Heavy support:
{Heavy weapon squad, 3 heavy bolters} x3

His blood angel list had rhinos, dreadnoughts, and one unit of scouts. I got first turn. I dropped my scions behind his units and to the sides, to force him to split up and back up to go after them, and did rather a lot of damage. At the end of turn 2, he was down to two HQ characters, 2 tactical marines, and a badly damaged rhino, scattered across his side of the table, mostly done killing scions. I had lost most but not all of my scions, one commissar, one astropath, and one conscript blob.

We stopped there, after two turns.

Admittedly, my opponent's list was suboptimal and his deployment wasn't insightful. But beware. The same fate will befall those who don't learn his lesson. Deep striking scions can kill their own value in points when facing vehicles in basically one turn.

Fluff: a lone company of about 100 men advances beyond their lines, drawing in some hostiles... but it's a trap! As the hostiles bear down on the beleaguered company, stormtroopers appear, rising from the ground where they were camouflaged.

Two battalion detachments:

4 HQ total:
Company commander
{Tempestor prime, command rod}

6 Elites total:
{Commissar} x2
{Astropath} x2
Tempestus command squad, 4 meltaguns
Tempestus command squad, 4 plasmaguns

9 Troops total:
{Infantry squad, sniper rifle, lascannon } x4
{Infantry squad, sniper rifle, missile launcher } x2
Conscripts (31 men)
Tempestus scions, 2 plasma guns
Tempestus scions, 2 plasma guns

I faced a Dark Eldar list composed of mainly ravagers and raiders with cabalites, and one squad of scourges. The tempestus scions were very effective, but basically all dead within 2 turns. My opponent got an early advantage on objectives, and I only caught up in the last couple turns. When we called it quits at the end of turn 6, he had only 2 models left: a half dead ravager and his archon. I still had about 60 models left, including 4-5 of the heavy weapons from the infantry squads.

The sniper rifles were useful. A mortal wound from one took the last wound off of a raider sitting in cover. I guess that's what snipers will be useful for: occasional wounds against targets with good armor saves.
My lascannons and missile launchers rolled poorly. My plasma and melta did well, but when they do well for the 4th straight game, it probably isn't luck. Deep striking order givers let me fearlessly supercharge my plasma.
I had one more tempestor prime than I needed. This edition demands more HQ units than I want.

I think deep strike was the most buffed part of the game. I'll bet you all that scions will be all over the place until point values are updated and/or until people learn how to bubble wrap against deep strike in this new edition.
As for the correct mix of conscripts and infantry squads for guard players, I'm still playing around with it. I think there are tactical roles for both.

General Discussion / My thoughts on 8th editio
« on: June 29, 2017, 09:24:54 AM »
I recorded a video of my thoughts on 8th edition:

All the things we argued about most and wasted the most time on (like templates) are GONE!!!
Deep strike is better, weapon skill, ballistic skill, armor saves, and AP matter more, strength/toughness and range matters less.

Tau had been the monkey I couldn't get off my back. But with this list, I finally did it.

My list is basically here:
With just a couple changes: Khan was out, a librarian on a bike was in. No attack bike and less conscripts, but two extra squads of inquisitorial henchmen on foot, 1 flamer & 1 meltagun for each squad in a rhino, and add Coteaz and another quad mortar.

Round 1: Bye.

Battle 1 (round 2):
Facing Magnus with heralds, horrors, and tzeenchian flying demons (incl. fateweaver), I got first turn and called down a lot of long range firepower on his heralds and horrors with my wyverns, quad mortars, and some serious additional firepower from my scouts.
Ultimately, my list was overwhelmed by the sheer power of Magnus backed with about 29 psychic dice. He won 10-1, but it would have been 6-5 if I had made a run move on the last turn onto the relic with some obsec folks. Unfamiliarity with Magnus' powers didn't help. He summoned flamers and toasted infantry. He summoned chariots and toasted bikes. I neither rolled well to deny the witch nor did I target the right powers. Also not helping: failing to get any scout units back on the 5+ the castellans detachment grants.


1) Moving to midfield with much of the force. The deployment was hammer and anvil. Had I waited at a distance, my opponent's first turn would have done a lot less damage, and I could have kept pummeling his light forces that provide psychic dice and whatever he was summoning before he could do a lot of damage.
2) Unfamiliarity with Magnus. Wow, a 18 inch D beam... treason...

Battle 2:
Facing a Tau list with 3 regular riptides, 2 different forgeworld riptides, a stormsurge, 4 tetras, and some forgeworld commander.
I got the plus-one to seizing the initiative trait, and for the spare warlord trait from the inquisitorial detachment, I got to infiltrate the inquisitor plus 3 more units. My opponent, accepting that with Coteaz' reroll, I was more likely to seize than not to, let me go first. He deployed 1-2 riptides forward to screen the rest of his forces from my infiltrators. He kept his non-giants off the field to avoid the tons of small arms fire I had available. I infiltrated some of the psychic mini-squads in their rhinos. Turn 1, I killed a riptide and damaged 2 others with a ton of psychic shrieking and a bit of grav and raw firepower.
He played defensively on his turn 1, using a fair bunch of his stims to get 3++ saves.
On my turn 2, another riptide fell. And then around turn 3, tank-shocking made a couple riptides run off the board.
Much of my HQ force made it into the assault with the storm surge (though the blob that got them there had mostly melted away), but broke off using hit and run to take out the enemy commander. This was a mistake. Other forces failed to hold the stormsurge until they could get back, and a failed assault roll meant that his wounded stormsurge and 1 remaining riptide survived, pretty much staying away from my forces in a corner and shooting whatever got close or could be a threat (like Rhinos). He won the primary mission (kill points), I won the maelstrom mission, and then I won on tertiaries. Smarter play could have probably tabled my opponent, but I made a couple of mistakes:

1) I took my assault squad after a small enemy HQ for the tertiary objective of slaying the warlord rather than leaving that to whatever was there to deal with him. This let the stormsurge survive.
2) Much of my first blob got killed because I hadn't internalized the ITC rules for invisibility, and large chunks got smashed by templates.
3) I didn't give my two footslogging henchmen units telepathy, but rather divination. Ditto Coteaz. Big mistake.

Takeaways about my army:
The techmarine didn't bring much to either battle. Time to move hunter's eye to the librarian and find something else to do with the other 85 points.
Scouts can do quite a number on light forces, and getting them to come back in on the outflank (or deepstriking in their land speeders) on a 5+ after being destroyed could have been super awesome for linebreaker, and for continuous damage to an opponent's backfield. Drop the melta squad (useless in both battles) for that.

Takeaways about the meta:
The Magnus list I faced won the tournament. Ynnari made up a third of the tournament's armies. The rest was almost all Tau, space marines, or demons.
I had put meltaguns here and there because I was worried about battle company, but that's obsolete - not one brought battle company. Lots of jetbikes instead.
I enjoy having the ability to generate 2+ rerollable saves in the assault, but most powerful assaulters these days ignore armor saves. Time to drop a ministorum priest.

Is the meta right for a Hereticus inquisitor with a psyocculum and null rod in a horde of conscripts? With the new psyk-out grenades on 25-point inquisitors with extra warlord traits, commmissars are more obsolete than ever.
I finally have that Tau monkey off my back! I've played games against riptide lists where I've failed to remove a single model. The solution is tons of psychic shriek, and getting the first turn. And the inquisitorial representative detachment plus Coteaz really help with that.
I have yet to face Ynnari, but it strikes me that one may want to abandon conventional wisdom when fighting them: Try not to kill any units entirely, whittle them down instead to the point that them getting a spare shooting action won't be a big deal. Another bit of conventional wisdom that may have to be abandoned: Sometimes, you should stop shooting to make sure you get the assaults you want.

The castellan detachment was more or less made for my style of army building, so here we go, tomorrow's tournament list.

1) Can people double check that this is legal?

2) I've been facing a lot of Tau, and am simply trying to outlast the 6-riptide lists.

3) I think I have enough firepower and mobility to vex other armies. I'm afraid of heavy armor, say 6 knights, or the wrong super-heavy. I feel like I'm always a bit light on anti-tank material. Is it glaring?

Khan on moondrakkan
bike squad, meltagun
bike squad, grav gun
quad gun battery (experimental rules)
quad gun battery (experimental rules)

Inquisitorial Representative detachment:
Xenos inquisitor, rad & pyschotroke grenades

Castellans of the imperium detachment:
Ministorum priest, meltabombs (they can take meltabombs in the sisters of battle dexes, right?)
Ministorum priest, meltabombs
Techmarine, hunter's eye, bike
Scout squad, meltabombs, land speeder, storm
Scout squad, combi-melta, land speeder storm, multimelta
Bike squad, 2 meltaguns
Bike squad, grav gun
Infantry platoon:
  Platoon command squad, autocannon
  Infantry squad, meltagun
  Infantry squad, meltagun
  Sabre Weapons battery, twin linked lascannon
  Conscripts (48)
  Inquisitorial henchman warband, 2 acolytes, meltagun, 1 psyker, rhino
  Inquisitorial henchman warband, 2 acolytes, meltagun, 1 psyker, rhino
  Inquisitorial henchman warband, 2 acolytes, meltagun, 1 psyker, rhino
  Inquisitorial henchman warband, 2 acolytes, 1 psyker, razorback
Attack bike, multimelta

4 bike squads and 1 attack bike with special weapons,
2 blobs led by space marine characters with ministorum priests that scout and then rush the foe
4 rhino equivalents with psykers and/or meltaguns inside rushing up the board
2 scout squads in land speeder storms
5 cheap artillery units

Hi there, I've been playing marine/guard MSU for a while and am thinking of trying something very different: A list with a ton of artillery. The idea started when I saw a new experimental marine artillery unit at a tournament, and soon after got my hands on Forgeworld's Astra Militarum book.

Consider: a basilisk is 125 points, but as a sturdier immobile artillery piece it is 75 points, plus it can receive orders. And there are lots of other options for weaponry. If you have some counter-assault units ready to protect the artillery, why not build your army around it?

So in my usual marine-guard-inquisition way, I was thinking of using...
A) Both the new marine "quad mortar support batteries" and the old imperial Armour book's artillery to lay down a lot of firepower at long range,
B) A white scars techmarine-led blob of conscripts backed by an inquisitor with psychotroke grenades and a ministorum priest as a counter-assault unit, and
C) Something to run out there and grab objectives, probably space marine bikes or scouts, and/or inquisitorial henchmen in rhinos or razorbacks.

So... what do you guys think? Could it be viable? What units would do a good job of it? And has anyone tried an artillery-heavy list in a different army? The most artillery I've ever seen on a table is 3 thunderfire cannons. Has anyone seen more?

Discussion: Astra Militarum / Best units, worst units
« on: November 22, 2016, 10:59:38 AM »
List your own picks!
At first, I could only find 3 clear top units, so let's make it the 5 best. That way we'll be exchanging new ideas instead of just stating the obvious.

List your top 5 units and least favorite five units.

1) Wyvern, no explanation necessary.
2) Conscripts (Infantry platoon). They can bubble wrap everything, they can take up board space, they don't much care if they have to snap shoot, and they can hit both T3 and T6 with surprising relative effectiveness, especially when ordered properly. I've seen them shred invisible demons and T6 tyranid MCs. They can excel both in shooting and in the assault. The best part is any time your opponent dedicates firepower to shoot at 3-point models, they're not shooting at anything else more valuable on a per-wound basis.
3) Ministorum priest. Add one of these and your conscripts will take forever to kill. Add two if you're worried about barrage templates.
4) Armored sentinel, because 40 points gets you a bit of long range strength 6 firepower that can hide in cover without getting immobilized and has front armor 12. In the right circumstances, it also makes a great counter-assault unit. There are plenty of assault units that can't touch front armor 12. I'm looking at you, flesh hounds of Khorne, nob-less Ork boyz, and, just to make my point later, Ogryns.
5) Platoon command squad. (Infantry platoon) It's a small, cheap, expendable unit with objective secured and it buffs your other units. What better to hold a backfield objective than one of these, with perhaps sniper rifles or an autocannon? Its small footprint means that it can often hide from sight.

Honorable mention: I want to try forgeworld Sabre defense platforms and manticore platforms, but haven't fielded them yet. Has anyone out there? Are they effective? Also, I can't help enjoying the master of ordnance.

1) Rough riders. Just what you'd expect of cavalry in the year 40,000: they can be easily gunned down before they reach anything. If even necessary.
2) Nork Deddog, Sgt. Kell. Who cares about superior toughness when the unit has majority toughness 3? Who cares about LD8 orders when almost everything already has LD7 or 8? Automatic look out sir will basically protect you from snipers and only snipers, who I don't see much in the meta.
3) Ogryns. They can't scratch AV 12,
4) Leman Russ battle tank (& Demolisher). At ballistic skill 3, it may well miss, and meantime you've paid big points (you better believe you'll regret not taking a dozer blade), some of them for a heavy bolter than always snap fires, many more for AV 14 that strength D will bypass or melta will punch through or which deep strikers or assault units will get around. Good for long range firefights? The Demolisher can't catch Tau, and the battle tank can't punch through riptide armor.
5) Hellhound. Why would you hurry up the field with a vehicle which, in the assault, has rear armor 10 just like most everything else? I can't help comparing it very unfavorably with the helldrake.

What do I do with the last 20 points?

Khan on Moondrakkan
Chaplain with hunter's eye
Attack bike, multimelta
Attack bike, multimelta
Tactical squad, melta, combimelta, drop pod
Tactical squad, melta, combimelta, drop pod
Tactical squad, melta, combimelta, drop pod
Tactical squad, plasma gun, rhino
Tactical squad, plasma gun, rhino
Tactical squad, rhino
Devestator squad, grav cannon, rhino
Devestator squad, grav cannon, rhino
Scout squad (boltguns), Land speeder storm
Scout squad (boltguns), Land speeder storm with multimelta
Scout squad (sniper rifles)

Allied Astra Militarum:
Company command squad
Ministorum priest
Ministorum priest
Platoon command squad
Infantry squad
Infantry squad
Conscripts (49 models)

Inquisitorial detachment:
Xenos inquisitor, 3 servo skulls, rad grenades
Henchman warband: 2 acolytes, 1 psyker
Henchman warband: 2 acolytes, 1 psyker
Henchman warband: 2 acolytes, 1 psyker

This army uses Khan's scouting rule to move everything up for maximum turn 1 firepower. The tac squad rhinos can move a bit in front of the henchmen warbands so that turn 1, the tac squads disembark, the henchmen embark, the rhinos move up, and boom, super cheap psychic shrieks.
The conscripts, joined by the inquisitor, khan, and the ministorum priest make a devastating assault unit.

If I can't take out my enemy, plan B is to outlast them.

Changes since the last iteration: I have dropped my wyvern for the warbands, and have messed around with the weapon loadouts on the marine squads, since multimeltas have been ineffective.

The question is what do I do with the last 20 points?

Discussion: Chaos Daemons / Dearth of Chaos Demons builds
« on: July 28, 2016, 12:54:12 PM »
I've played a number of games against demons now. It took me a while to get the hang of it, but now I feel like I keep seeing the same thing each time:

Mandatory: Flying monstrous creatures, screamers, invisibility.

Optional: Plague drones, nurglings and/or pink horrors hiding in the backfield, seekers.

It's all deathstars. Flying deathstar, 2++ rerollable deathstar, invisible deathstar, tough as nails deathstar. 2-5 unkillable units charging or flying around the table.

Are there competitive builds for demons that don't involve such small unit counts?

Upcoming tournament's list:
Khan on Moondrakkan
Chaplain with hunter's eye (ignore cover relic)
Attack bike, multimelta
Attack bike, multimelta
Tactical squad in razorback
Tactical squad with meltagun and combimelta in drop pod
Tactical squad with meltagun and combimelta in drop pod
Tactical squad with meltagun and combimelta in drop pod
Tactical squad with grav cannon in rhino
Tactical squad with grav cannon in rhino
Devestator squad with two multimeltas in rhino
Devestator squad with two multimeltas in rhino
Scout squad (bolters), Land speeder storm
Scout squad (bolters), Land speeder storm with multimelta
Scout squad, sniper rifles

Astra Militarum allied detachment:
Company command squad, Master of Ordnance
Ministorum priest
Ministorum priest
Platoon command squad
Infantry squad
Infantry squad
Conscripts (42)

Inquisition detachment:
Ordo Xenos inquisitor, rad grenades, 3 servo-skulls

Deployment: All (possibly except chaplain) independent characters join the conscript blob, khan grants them scout. Servo skulls prevent my opponent from scouting or infiltrating.
Turn 1: Almost everything starts in range of the enemy and lets loose with awesome firepower.
Turn 2: The conscript blob can assault anything that has come close. Rad grenades plus ministorum priests can hit like a ton of bricks.
Turn 3: If the blob comes up against something that can withstand it, it can hit and run into the opponent's deployment zone and multi-assault backfield units.
Turn 4-7: If I'm not winning by using crushing firepower, sheer model mass (11 vehicles, 135 other models), almost all of which have objective secured, can hold the objectives and hopefully last 7 turns.

Previous tournament's list:

Khan on Moondrakkan
Chaplain with hunter's eye (ignore cover relic)
Attack bike, multimelta
Assault squad with 2 flamers in drop pod
Tactical squad with flamer in drop pod
Tactical squad with meltagun and combimelta in drop pod
Tactical squad with meltagun and combimelta in drop pod
Tactical squad with meltagun and combimelta in drop pod
Tactical squad with grav cannon in rhino
Tactical squad with grav cannon in rhino
Devestator squad with two multimeltas in rhino
Devestator squad with two multimeltas in rhino
Scout squad (bolters), Land speeder storm
Scout squad (bolters), Land speeder storm with multimelta
Bike scout squad, cluster mines and meltabombs

Astra Militarum allied detachment:
Company command squad
Ministorum priest
Ministorum priest
Platoon command squad
Infantry squad
Infantry squad
Conscripts (47)

Discussion: Astra Militarum / More bodies than bullets?
« on: January 21, 2016, 05:05:02 PM »
I don't own 305 guardsmen, but I don't see what someone with a normal army is supposed to do against an army like this, which utilizes Khan to cover almost half the board before turn 1 starts and provide hit and run and ATSKNF. Shoot them all you want and the conscripts will keep coming.

For only 1681 points so far, there's still room to pick out a few key toys, like more psychic levels or some lascannons.

60 Company command squad

Infantry platoon x4:
   30 Platoon command squad x4
   50 Infantry squad x4
   50 Infantry squad x4
   150 Conscripts (50) x4

150 Khan on moondrakkan
63 Bike squad
63 Bike squad

Librarius conclave:
65 Librarian
80 Librarian, bike, meltabombs
80 Librarian, bike, meltabombs

So I was clearing out some deadwood from my list to make room for some new recently bought models, and found myself with 175 spare points. I'd appreciate advice on what to do with those points.

Combined arms primary detachment, White scars, Khan as warlord
150 Khan on his bike
93 Bike squad, 2 grav guns
83 Bike squad, 2 meltaguns
105 Drop pod x3
100 Thunderfire cannon

Formation: Librarius conclave
100 Librarian, force sword, bike, storm shield, meltabombs
115 Librarian, lvl 2, terminator armor
100 Librarian, storm shield, lvl 2, force axe

Combined arms detachment, Astra Militarum
125 Company command squad, 4 meltguns, astropath
75 Ministorum priest x3
120 Veteran squad, demolitions, 3 meltaguns
40 Platoon command squad, autocannon
120 A 20 man double-infantry-squad blob with 2 autocannons
75 Special weapon squad, 3 plasma guns
144 Conscripts (48 men)
65 Wyvern
65 Wyvern

1675 points

The plan:
Khan and the librarian on a bike can scout one or both infantry blobs forward, preferably in the middle of the table. The bike squads can scout or outflank.
The wyverns (vehicle thunderfire equivalents) sit in the thunderfire-boosted terrain, tearing apart infantry.
The guardsmen squads with special weapons come out of the drop pods, probably augmented by the librarius conclave. Orders from their command squads can give them ignore cover. "Demolitions" means that the entire 10 man squad has meltabombs and one has a demolition charge. I have a pretty good chance of getting invisibility or endurance with all those psykers, so dropping them in the middle of an opponent's formation  will force an opponent to focus a lot of fire on them or scatter like crazy.
Ministorum priests are pocket chaplains (fearless, zealot) who usually grant their unit rerollable saves in the assault. combine with terminator armor and storm shields for 2+/3++ rerollable saves in the assault.

This has been a really good list idea for me. I ran a variant at a local tournament.
I've been able to defeat tournament demons lists (the 2+ rerollable save with invisibility variety) with massed firepower, hit and run, and my own rerollable saves.
I've been able to defeat tournament space wolves/white scars list by alpha striking my opponent's massive artillery and then using volume of dice with hit and run to take out his super elite cavalry.
With hordes of scouting bodies and potential outflankers and deepstrikers, I can control the field pretty well, and restrict mobility.

So... what do I bring to top this off? I can draw from either codex, any slot but marine fast attack, which I've maxed out.

I'm thinking camo on the wyverns for 2+ cover saves, but that still leaves me 145 points to play with.

Here are some answers to the common question “Why do I keep losing?”

Answer A: You’re using the wrong tactics. Solution: Experiment with tactics.

Playing a new war game is like being a general in a new war with new technology. History is full of examples of generals using out-of-date tactics. Everyone but especially the French in WW1 spring to mind, and also the French in WW2. Also the US in Vietnam, both sides in the American revolution, the Israelis at the start of the 1973 war, etc.
In game terms, you're using your units wrong.
-Maybe you're not taking full advantage of the modern technology of war. Free rhinos from the Gladius detachment have searchlights. Use them. And don't forget that you can ram, too.
-50 fearless conscripts may seem like a shooty unit while an invisible assault terminator deathstar is an assault one, but you should still charge them rather than shoot them when they get close. That way they won't be able to shred your company command squad and russes for a few more turns.

Answer A1: You’re playing the wrong army. Solution: Experiment with tactics or switch armies.

If ISIS established large, permanent bases like the USA does, they would be bombed. Good bye, ISIS. Instead, they play to their strengths: propaganda, terror, and very cynical fund raising methods. In game terms, your tactics WOULD be right, if your fire warriors were dire avengers. But they’re not. They will be caught in the assault because they can’t battle focus back.

Answer B: You’re playing against excellent and/or experienced opponents. Solution: Ask them for advice and listen.

Answer C:  Your list is just plain bad because of low model count. Solution: Get less upgrades. Fritz generally knows what he’s talking about when he says that most anything can be made to work if you surround it with the right things, but for the love of God, don’t give a sternguard squad 2 combi-meltas, 2 plasma guns, and a power fist and put them in a razorback! That’s just WRONG. If your opponent has the firepower to kill one tactical squad and one rhino, he'll take this squad down just as easily. You'll lose 240 points for the price of 105. (Or less if you take the gladius.) At that ratio, you could take your 2000 point list against a well-built 1250 point list and win. Each unit should be built with no more than two purposes in mind. Unless my model has 3 attacks minimum, I don’t give ‘em a power fist. If my squad has a lascannon, the sergeant doesn’t get upgrades.

Answer C1: You only did that because you don't have enough models to play a 1850 point game otherwise. Solution: Play lower point games. And then buy more guys. If you don't have the money,  proxy, scratch build, and look for cheap deals, especially from people leaving the hobby.

Answer C2: You have the money, but gosh, 'evil' GW’s models are expensive and you’re hesitant. Solution: Look around. 40K is expensive for a child’s game, but not for an adult hobby. Compared to smoking, it’s cheap. Compared to golf, it's cheap.

So I just got 3rd place at a local tournament, winning all 3 games. I posted my list at but wanted to summarize it here before I get started:

Khan and a captain, both on bikes.
A librarius conclave.
Ministorum priests. (they’re mini-chaplains who give you a 50-50 shot at rerollable saves in the assault each turn)
Some bike squads.
3 Drop pods, with guardsmen with meltas/flamers inside.
2 big approx 30 man infantry blobs.
Anti-infantry artillery (1 thunderfire, 1 wyvern).

The tournament used the new NOVA tournament format, which gives you lots of choices of how to pursue points towards the win. I generally went for the end-of-game point options.

Round 1, I’m faced with a fateweaver-led tzeench demon list. About 18 psychic dice, a troop summoning portal, and a T5 FNP deathstar with 2++ and 2+ cover saves coming down the middle of the table.

His setup, complete with chaos boons and psychic powers, took a LONG TIME. We only got three rounds done.

I got first turn. Since my foe’s army was assault based, I chose to keep the bulk of the independent characters out of the drop pods and in my backfield. When my guardsmen drop podded, they were pretty ineffective. My meltaguns rolled poorly vs. the screamers and took out just one.

Summoning little units here and there in his backfield, my opponent took his two big units rushing forward. They got most of the way across in turn 1.

Turn 2, his non-deathstar unit of slaanesh (seekers?) cavalry got decimated by one of my blobs at close range and was finished off by some outflanking bikes. I took his death star head on with one I constructed with out of a bike squad (for T5), a captain (for a 2+ save and I5 for hit-and-run), librarians, (with a storm shield), and ministorum priests (for rerollable saves). Almost no one died. The two units sat there, clogging up the table.

His second turn involved a whole lot of spectacular nothing happening in the middle of the table between two rerollable save death stars. In the backfield, his infantry units cleaned up 1-2 more of my drop pod units. Then I hit-and-run out of the death star standoff assault in the middle of the table.

Turn 3, we realized there was not going to be time for a turn 4. My deathstar split apart again, and with the tough, rerollable save core going back in to hold down my opponent’s deathstar, the rest of the unit split up and joined the fairly newly arrived bike squads in taking every objective I could get my hands near.

On his turn 3, he knocked me off of one objective, but it wasn’t enough to prevent me from getting the win.

If you know the NOVA format, then basically I won on primary objectives (classic markers on the board). He couldn’t kill my warlord or break through my lines, but I couldn’t kill his units I had marked for death because he kept them in reserve, and most of my drop troops got wrecked turn 1.

I came out of the round with a modest win, but with a big morale boost because last time I had played that player at a tournament, he had crushed me with a different army.

Round 2 should have been a terrible round if you just looked at the army lists. My enemy had 3 thunderfire cannons to counter my blobs. He had the culexus assassin to stop my psykers. And he had bikers with special weapons and thunderwolf cavalry with white scars characters to meet my deathstar and hop out of any disadvantageous matchup. But... deploying and going second, I basically won the game before turn 1.

I reserved most of my army, including both blobs. One bike squad full of characters deployed forward. When the culexus infiltrated about 14” away, my bikes scouted backwards, taking the psyker out of range.

On his turn 1, his thunderfires shot at my wyvern, pretty ineffectively. His bikers and thunderwolves came tearing down the field, but the deployment was hammer and anvil, so my artillery was still some distance away.

On my turn 1, my drop podders (including most of the conclave) took advantage of my opponent’s eliteness and lack of bubble wrap. Psychic shrieks (1 from conclave, 1 from astropath) took out one thunderfire cannon, and ignore-cover meltaguns (because of orders) took care of another. My librarian-on-a-bike stayed back out of Culexus range (he never got near a psyker all game) while the rest of the bike squad moved up and helped the artillery take out a bike squad.

Oh his turn 2, the thunderwolves turned back to deal with my drop pod squads. While mostly getting wrecked, the ministorum priests gave my squad rerollable saves and the storm-shielded librarian tanked like a boss. At the end of the turn, what was left of my squad hit-and-ran out.

On my turn 2, my reserves arrived. Hordes of guardsmen poured onto the field, snap firing autocannons. Bikers outflanked and blocked off good lines of advance for the thunderwolf cavalry, so that my deathstar could advance and take out another bike squad. My decimated drop pod squad took out his last thunderfire cannon in the assault.

On his turn 3, his chapter master broke off to assault what was left of my drop pod forces (a psyker and a ministorum priest). His culexus retreated from my death star bke squad and hordes of guardsmen almost in range, while his thunderfire cavalry squads moved forward again, taking out the two bike squads that had outflanked.

On my turn 3, my guardsmen (prescienced by my surviving divination-on-a-bike psyker) took some wounds off the more forward smaller thunderfire cavalry unit, while my death star bikers picked up a ministorum priest from the blob, killed the culexus with shooting, and blocked his death star’s line of advance. The last element of my drop pod forces enfeebled his death star, and then died to the chapter master.

On his turn 4, his deathstar assaulted mine. Limited damage was caused thanks to the lack of instant death (yay, enfeeble) and rerollable saves (2+/4++). I hit and ran out. Meanwhile, his more advanced thunderwolf cavalry unit charged my conscripts and thunderfire cannon, since they were both on an objective. Prescience conscript overwatch reduced his unit to 1, and when he assaulted, he killed off the thunderfire cannon unit before the blob presciently bayoneted him to death. His chapter master’s orbital bombardment failed to quite wipe one of my units off of its objective.

On my turn 4 and with the time limit making turn 4 the last turn, my death star, which had hit and run, split up and turbo boosted in all directions, taking line breaker and all but one objective. In the scoring, it was a wipeout. I scored 17 of 19 points, and my opponent scored about 6.

Round 3, I went up against another similar demon list. Screamers and seekers crossed the board turn 1. Invisibility on the seekers protected them, while fateweaver and shrouded protected the screamers. My drop podders landed to bolster my lines. The prescienced conscripts took out about half of the seekers, but damage to the screamers was limited.

Turn 2, he multi-assaulted everyone. On one end, the khan led blob failed leadership and ran off the board. (I think I forgot to demand he try to sweeping-advance me, which might have kept me in combat and saved me.) On the other end, my conscript blob took some losses, and the ministorum priest was killed in a challenge by the mistress seeker who forced him to accept the challenge. The middle squad, bolstered by ministorum priests, held strong. My conscript blob and elite drop pod squad then both hit-and-ran out.

On my turn 2, all but one of the seekers were taken out, I think by my artillery. The conscripts, prescienced again, took two wounds of the flying fateweaver. Then my uber-squad with the storm shield librarian, another librarian, and ministorum priests charged back into the screamers to tie them down. Another battle of feuding rerollable saves got us pretty much nowhere, though I took another couple wounds. Some of my reserve bikers arrived and started tearing apart his cultists in the backfield.

On his turn 3, his seeker of slaanesh character charged and took out my thunderfire cannon. The screamers stayed tied down, though my uber-squad was fraying. And his was undamaged, thanks to invisibility and his 2++ rerollable save (3++ one round, but still, nothing died). Again, my uber-squad hit and ran out.

On my turn 3, my remaining bike squads came in and continued tearing apart his troop units who were hiding in the backfield. My 1 wound captain rode off to join them. My deathstar picked up a new, unwounded librarian and detached the company command squad (which by this point was down to just the company commander, somewhat wounded) and a wounded librarian, and charged back into the fray, refreshed. My conscripts sat in the middle of the field and killed the last seeker.

On his turn 4, with the screamers still locked down, all he had to work really was two fliers. Flickering fire hurt my conscripts, killed the librarian leading them, and got them running. I failed to hit and run out.

On my turn 4, my bikes finished off my opponent’s conscripts and horrors in the backfield, my captain boosted off to a distant objective, my company commander who had just been dropped off out of the assault because of his injuries took the relic in the middle of the table. A unit of obsec autocannons which my opponent had never had a chance to charge took the objective that was right beside the furious death star melee. We didn't bother resolving the death star combat because time was up and the results wouldn't affect the scoring. Game over. I scored max points on primary and secondary objectives, 17 of 19 total.

This list has proven itself able to hold down some of the best assault lists out there. I'd still like a chance to see how it does against Eldar, Tau, Necrons, the gladius, and the green tide.

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