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Topics - Celerior

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1
Discussion: THE LIST / 2000 Marines/Militarum latest iteration
« on: September 23, 2017, 11:58:49 PM »
One of the things I love about this edition is how you can build really competitive lists that are super fluffy. In this scenario, a lieutenant from a reserve company of a Raven Guard successor chapter takes command of a force of Catachans and deploys advanced pickets, anticipating the enemy's approach...

Space Marine Raven Guard spearhead detachment:
 Lieutenant, 2 chain swords (upgrade one to the teeth of terra)
 Scout squad, 10 men
 Devestator squad, 6 men, heavy bolter, 2 lascannons
 Devestator squad, 6 men, heavy bolter, 2 lascannons
 Devestator squad, heavy bolter, lascannon

2 Imperial Guard battalion detachments:
 Company commander
 Company commander
 Tempestor prime
 Tempestor prime
 Tempestor prime
 50 conscripts
 50 conscripts
 Infantry squad, plasma gun, lascannon
 Infantry squad, plasma gun, lascannon
 Infantry squad, plasma gun, lascannon
 Infantry squad, plasma gun, lascannon, boltgun
 Tempestus scions, 2 plasma guns & 1 plasma pistol
 Tempestus scions, 2 plasma guns & 1 plasma pistol
 Tempestus scions, 2 plasma guns & 1 plasma pistol
 Tempestus command squad, 4 plasma guns
 Tempestus command squad, 4 plasma guns
 Tempestus command squad, 4 meltaguns
 Astropath, laspistol
 Astropath, laspistol
 Astropath, laspistol
 Astropath, laspistol
 Astropath, laspistol
 Commissar, boltgun
 Sergeant Harker
 Heavy weapon squad, 3 mortars
 Heavy weapon squad, 3 heavy bolters
 Heavy weapon squad, 3 heavy bolters
 Sabre battery, defensive flashlight
 Sabre battery, defensive flashlight

Deployment: The scouts deploy as a screen to defend the main body from deep strikers getting within charge range of anything important. If necessary a couple of astropaths do the same on the flanks, or I deploy the smallest devastator squad "from the shadows". Behind these skirmishers, the conscripts make up the front row, with the infantry squads behind them. In terrain somewhere in the back sits the lieutenant's command post, from which he directs his devastator squads' firepower.

Tactics: The gunline units do their job. The scions do their job. The conscripts threaten to tie in assault and hold objectives, and with the help of astropaths in my back line, prevent opponents from deep striking effectively. The command points earned by the guard get expended by the marines: hellfire shells, orbital bombardments, and rerolls that have a better chance of success.

Very similar lists have done well for me at tournaments. The separate marine detachment is new to the list, though. I will be trying it out tomorrow.
C&C welcome.

2
Discussion: Battle Reports / 2000 point tournament report
« on: August 06, 2017, 08:58:11 AM »
I brought the list I posted here to a local NOVA tournament.
http://thewarmaster.com/index.php?topic=7984.0

Round 1
I faced a chaos list with 34 brimstone horrors, a bunch of flying demon princes including a couple named ones, Magnus the Red, and two chaos knights.
Mission: Primary objective: objectives. Secondary objective: pick from a list. Tertiary objectives: kill something every turn, turns 2-5.
Objectives: I picked linebreaker, marked a unit of brimstones for death, and picked one which basically meant that I had to kill all the brimstones. This was a big error. I was going to deploy my scions against the knights, right? And my opponent was going to be rushing my army with them, right? Why not target them?
Deployment: I made the error of being spooked, and getting distracted by terrain, and got thrown off my game. I deployed in a corner where there was cool terrain instead of in the middle. This cost me in the end, as I couldn't reach all the objectives.

Turn 1, he advanced, took out the mortars, took out my 10 scouts, and did some damage to the basilisk. My astropaths denied a smite or two and Magnus' warp time power. They would continue to deny many powers.
My turn 1, my scions took out one knight and damaged the other. I killed one brimstone squad, but not the targeted one, which was hiding in a building, and short enough to be out of sight to most of my shooting.

Turn 2, he killed a lot of scions, but not all of them.
My turn 2, I killed the other knight and did a lot of damage to Magnus.

His turn 3, He killed almost all the scions and flew Magnus away from a lot of the firepower. At this point we were running out of time and realized we were only going to get 4 turns, because the organizers only gave us 2 hours of play per round!
My turn 3, I double-timed the conscripts and got them near many of the objectives.

His turn 4, one unit of brimstones reached a distant objective, another hid in a building in a corner, and his demon princes sat on two others. Magnus was going to be irrelevant to the scoring, so he basically just sat around and used smiting powers to kill about 20 conscripts. He would have had to kill about 20 more to make a difference.
My turn 4, my backline held 2 objectives, and my conscripts reached two more. Because I had deployed in a corner instead of the middle, I didn't manage to reach the other two, and I only managed to kill about half of the brimstones on the distant objective, and two brimstones survived my desperate assaults while hiding in the building.

Scoring: I beat him on primary objectives by 4 points, but he achieved all his secondaries and I achieved just 1, and I hadn't killed units on turns 3 and 4. He won, 13 to 11.

Lessons: Don't get spooked by a flying army and don't fall in love with awesome terrain features, because a 5+ to a 4+ isn't really valuable. Focus on secondary objectives first and pick things that you will be doing anyway, not things that seem easy. If you spend turns 1-2 focusing on secondary objectives and complete them, then once you've achieved them, focus on getting to objectives by the end of the game.


Round 2:
I faced a footslogging salamanders army with a lot of primaris marines. 10 hellblasters, 10 intercessors, 5 scouts, 5 tacticals, a predator, a razorback, a primaris rhino, a chapter master, 5 reivers, 5 vanguard vets with hammers. I seized the initiative, though really I shouldn't have bothered, but we both realized that this was going to be an unbalanced game.

Turn 1: My conscripts and scouts moved forward, half my scions dropped and killed half the hellblasters and the predator.
His turn 1, he killed most of the scions who had dropped, and used his reivers and vanguard vets to take out some of my scouting elements.

Turn 2: With all his deep strikers accounted for, I moved much of my army up farther, killed most of the reivers and all of the vanguard vets, and killing a couple of scouts. More scions dropped and killed all but one of the hellblasters. One reiver survived my assault which tied up him and a tactical squad.
His turn 2: He killed most of the scions that had dropped near the hellblasters with intercessors. His final Batman (reiver) survived the assault again.

Turn 3: I backed off the reiver and shot him to death, along with the scout squad, who didn't get 2+ saves in cover because of my astropaths. I tied up some big dreadnought and advanced my blob further towards his tactical squad.
His turn 3: He killed some conscripts.

We still had time, but rather than play out a fairly boring turn 4, we just assumed that his forces tucked in the corner could survive but that I would be able to take out a tactical squad and seize its' objective on that turn.

Scoring: This time I achieved all my secondaries (linebreaker, kill something on turn 1, and marked the reivers for death, since I figured they'd be coming near me...), got full points on the primary mission, and only failed to kill something on turns 5 or 6. He didn't achieve any secondary objectives and controlled just one primary objective marker. Final score: 18-4.

Lessons: If you're dealing with a firefight and actually want to win it, drop all your scions at once. Don't hold one in reserve here and one in reserve there. My conscripts can get to objectives. My backfield lascannons and plasma guns etc. can provide the extra last bit needed if it turns out I didn't put quite enough force into something.


Round 3
I faced a THUNDERHAWK GUNSHIP!!! In his backfield, he deployed a devastator (missile launchers) and hellblaster squad. A bunch of high firepower primaris units backed by a variety of characters sat in the thunderhawk's hold.
I deployed fearlessly in the middle of the table. For his objectives, he basically ended up trying to kill 60+ models, a conscript blob of 50, and my basilisk.

Turn 1: His thunderhawk flew to midfield. He shot at some targets he considered important: my heavy weapons and infantry squads. His devestators did a bit of damage to my big blob.
My turn 1: I dropped most of my scions to take out his hellblaster and devastator squads (one of my secondary targets, and another of my goals was linebreaker). I used overkill on both targets, fearing an auspex scan stratagem. My opponent didn't bother because with so much firepower available to me, "there's no point". I killed the support units, and shot the leftover plasma at the thunderhawk. My conscripts and other stripped another couple wounds off the thunderhawk.

Turn 2: His thunderhawk disgorged a ton of primaris marines. Between them and shooting from the thunderhawk, they killed most of his target, the 50-man blob. The thunderhawk also killed some more heavy weapons and almost killed his target the basilisk.
My turn 2: I fell back with what was left of my first 50-man blob. Using ignores cover from the astropaths and a few smites and some help from scions advancing backwards from where they had dropped (and then using orders to let them shoot anyway), I knocked out most of the folks he had dropped, leaving only a few characters. I kept them around in order to have something to kill for the tertiary objectives on the next two turns.

Turn 3: His thunderhawk wiped out the rest of his targeted conscript squad and the basilisk. His characters shot and assaulted, but did limited damage.
My turn 3: I killed all but one character, his captain (who I was saving for turn 4 for the tertiary objective). I did kill the character who was holding the relic. I managed to spread out my conscripts in a way that forced my opponent to drop the thunderhawk into hover mode on turn 4. My last plasma scion squad dropped and did a bit of damage to the thunderhawk. Astropaths came running out of their hiding in buildings and did a bit more. Conscripts did a bit more. One last infantry squad did a bit more, and brought the thunderhawk down one step on its damage table.

Turn 4: He disembarked his final hellblaster squad and moved them to one objective, grabbed the relic with his captain in the middle of the table, and moved the thunderhawk to be within 6" of another objective.
My turn 4: I killed the captain for control of the relic, double-timed some characters to the objective held by his hellblasters, moved some conscripts to outnumber his thunderhawk by the other objective, and kept some scions hunkered down in his backfield for the last objectives. I killed just enough hellblasters to control the last objective, and we called it with just a couple minutes to go.

Scoring: I controlled all the primary objectives, he controlled none. We had both achieved all our secondary objectives, and I had taken care to kill something every turn, except for turn 5-6, which we didn't get to. I won, 18-9.

Lessons: Marine HQ choices are a serious liability, just as I had suspected. They do little damage. Especially if you strip away the models they're supporting. Multiple astropaths allowing units to ignore cover against multiple targets and also smiting was awesome.

Other thoughts: The basilisk makes a great "distraction carnifex", sitting in cover and tanking quite a bit of firepower before going down. Vehicles DO have the survivability and damage output to be worth their points if you can prevent opponents from getting into assault or deep strike range. My opponents shot at it and targeted it even though usually there were better things for them to target.


Overall:
I came in 4th of 21 players, 2 points out of third place. Not getting to turn 5 hurt me, and if we'd had more than 2 hours per round I could have gotten there and scored another point in at least two games, probably all three.
But I should take ownership of my big mistakes in game 1, where I got thrown off my game by the number of flyers and sought to protect my big guns from assault by deploying in the corner. That was really stupid of me. I should have let him get at them, because my army isn't really built to win on damage output, but on conscripts reaching all of the objectives.
Also, my secondary objective picks were all wrong in game 1, picking models which my brain identified as bubble wrap, but which he could hide with little loss of operational efficiency. I learned my lesson by game 2, when I marked for death his most aggressive assault unit (reivers).

3
Discussion: THE LIST / 2000 Astra Militarum tourney list w/report
« on: July 25, 2017, 02:26:22 PM »
One battalion and one brigade detachment, rearranged by battlefield role:

1st wave: The skirmishers.
Scout sentinel, heavy flamer
Scout sentinel, heavy flamer
Space marine scout squad
Space marine scout squad
Space marine scout bike squad

Their role is to start in possession of the midfield, and prevent turn 1 deep strikes from threatening the body of my army. I expect to go second each game, but if I manage to seize the initiative, they can do some damage and maybe tie up a couple of things in assaults.

Wave 2: The tide
Conscripts (50)
Conscripts (50)
Commissar, plasma pistol
Company commander
Astropath

This group's job is to charge up the board against elite gunline armies and lock them in assault or shoot them with the astropath(s) providing ignores cover. They are the bubble wrap that prevents deep strikers from getting near anything valuable. If they last through much of the game, they can also get to a lot of objectives.

Wave 3: The big guns.
Sergeant Harker
Commissar
Infantry squad, plasma gun, lascannon
Infantry squad, plasma gun, lascannon, boltgun
Infantry squad, plasma gun, lascannon, boltgun
Infantry squad, plasma gun, lascannon, boltgun
Heavy weapons team, 3 heavy bolters
Heavy weapons team, 3 heavy bolters
Heavy weapons team, 3 mortars
Basilisk
Sabre weapons platform: defensive searchlight
Sabre weapons platform: defensive searchlight

This group brings the slow, grinding firepower. It's hard to silence these plasma guns and lascannons when they come with 8 ablative wounds, a commissar to keep the morale losses low, and a horde of conscripts about to assault you if you're a shooty army and bubble wrapping these squads if you're an assault army. If it seems to you like there's not enough here, you're right. Here comes the rest...

Wave 5: The ambush
Tempestor prime, command rod
Tempestor prime, command rod
Tempestor prime, command rod
Tempestus command squad, 4 plasma guns
Tempestus command squad, 4 plasma guns
Tempestus command squad, 4 meltaguns
Tempestus scion squad, plasma pistol and 2 plasma guns
Tempestus scion squad, plasma pistol and 2 plasma guns
Tempestus scion squad, plasma pistol and 2 plasma guns
Tempestus scion squad, plasma pistol and 2 meltaguns

(That's all the plasma guardsmen I own.) Their purpose is to take down key tough enemy targets, and perhaps buy the conscripts one more turn to rush enemy gunlines.

Wave 6: Backfield characters and redundancy
Commissar (the 3rd)
Company commander (the 2nd and warlord, staying out of the way)
4 more Astropaths (numbers 2-5)

First of all, it's their job to deny my opponent anywhere in my backfield to deep strike, forcing them to deep strike near conscripts. Secondly, the astropaths can help my units ignore cover. Thirdly, they can deny many powers. Fourth, can offer a bit of smite spam. Sixth, they can control objectives with minimal wastage of force. Seventh, redundancy against snipers.

4
Discussion: THE LIST / 1500 Astra Militarum list and battle result
« on: July 03, 2017, 12:03:44 PM »
Over the weekend I played a 1500 point pick up game against a blood angel player. I can't call this a battle report because it wasn't a battle, it was a massacre.

LESSONS LEARNED:
Tempestus command squads are dirt cheap and NASTY. Opponents MUST have an answer. Deep strike generally has gotten way better.


My list:

HQ:
Company commander x1
{Tempestor prime, command rod} x3

Troops:
{Infantry squad, sniper, lascannon} x4
{Infantry squad, sniper, missile launcher} x2
Conscripts (41 bodies)
Conscripts (35 bodies)

Elites:
Commissar
Commissar with plasma pistol
{Tempestus command squad) x2
{Tempestus command squad, 4 melta guns} x2
{Tempestus command squad, 4 plasma guns} x2
{Astropath} x2
{Command squad, 4 snipers} x2 (Now only one is legal after the FAQ, but I hadn't read it yet.)

Heavy support:
{Heavy weapon squad, 3 heavy bolters} x3
{Wyvern}

His blood angel list had rhinos, dreadnoughts, and one unit of scouts. I got first turn. I dropped my scions behind his units and to the sides, to force him to split up and back up to go after them, and did rather a lot of damage. At the end of turn 2, he was down to two HQ characters, 2 tactical marines, and a badly damaged rhino, scattered across his side of the table, mostly done killing scions. I had lost most but not all of my scions, one commissar, one astropath, and one conscript blob.

We stopped there, after two turns.

Admittedly, my opponent's list was suboptimal and his deployment wasn't insightful. But beware. The same fate will befall those who don't learn his lesson. Deep striking scions can kill their own value in points when facing vehicles in basically one turn.

5
Fluff: a lone company of about 100 men advances beyond their lines, drawing in some hostiles... but it's a trap! As the hostiles bear down on the beleaguered company, stormtroopers appear, rising from the ground where they were camouflaged.

Two battalion detachments:

4 HQ total:
Company commander
{Tempestor prime, command rod}

6 Elites total:
{Commissar} x2
{Astropath} x2
Tempestus command squad, 4 meltaguns
Tempestus command squad, 4 plasmaguns

9 Troops total:
{Infantry squad, sniper rifle, lascannon } x4
{Infantry squad, sniper rifle, missile launcher } x2
Conscripts (31 men)
Tempestus scions, 2 plasma guns
Tempestus scions, 2 plasma guns

I faced a Dark Eldar list composed of mainly ravagers and raiders with cabalites, and one squad of scourges. The tempestus scions were very effective, but basically all dead within 2 turns. My opponent got an early advantage on objectives, and I only caught up in the last couple turns. When we called it quits at the end of turn 6, he had only 2 models left: a half dead ravager and his archon. I still had about 60 models left, including 4-5 of the heavy weapons from the infantry squads.

The sniper rifles were useful. A mortal wound from one took the last wound off of a raider sitting in cover. I guess that's what snipers will be useful for: occasional wounds against targets with good armor saves.
My lascannons and missile launchers rolled poorly. My plasma and melta did well, but when they do well for the 4th straight game, it probably isn't luck. Deep striking order givers let me fearlessly supercharge my plasma.
I had one more tempestor prime than I needed. This edition demands more HQ units than I want.

I think deep strike was the most buffed part of the game. I'll bet you all that scions will be all over the place until point values are updated and/or until people learn how to bubble wrap against deep strike in this new edition.
As for the correct mix of conscripts and infantry squads for guard players, I'm still playing around with it. I think there are tactical roles for both.

6
General Discussion / My thoughts on 8th editio
« on: June 29, 2017, 12:24:54 PM »
I recorded a video of my thoughts on 8th edition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CRzdpl6cV8

Summary:
All the things we argued about most and wasted the most time on (like templates) are GONE!!!
Deep strike is better, weapon skill, ballistic skill, armor saves, and AP matter more, strength/toughness and range matters less.

7
Tau had been the monkey I couldn't get off my back. But with this list, I finally did it.

My list is basically here:
http://thewarmaster.com/index.php?topic=7677.0
With just a couple changes: Khan was out, a librarian on a bike was in. No attack bike and less conscripts, but two extra squads of inquisitorial henchmen on foot, 1 flamer & 1 meltagun for each squad in a rhino, and add Coteaz and another quad mortar.

Round 1: Bye.

Battle 1 (round 2):
Facing Magnus with heralds, horrors, and tzeenchian flying demons (incl. fateweaver), I got first turn and called down a lot of long range firepower on his heralds and horrors with my wyverns, quad mortars, and some serious additional firepower from my scouts.
Ultimately, my list was overwhelmed by the sheer power of Magnus backed with about 29 psychic dice. He won 10-1, but it would have been 6-5 if I had made a run move on the last turn onto the relic with some obsec folks. Unfamiliarity with Magnus' powers didn't help. He summoned flamers and toasted infantry. He summoned chariots and toasted bikes. I neither rolled well to deny the witch nor did I target the right powers. Also not helping: failing to get any scout units back on the 5+ the castellans detachment grants.

Mistakes:

1) Moving to midfield with much of the force. The deployment was hammer and anvil. Had I waited at a distance, my opponent's first turn would have done a lot less damage, and I could have kept pummeling his light forces that provide psychic dice and whatever he was summoning before he could do a lot of damage.
2) Unfamiliarity with Magnus. Wow, a 18 inch D beam... treason...

Battle 2:
Facing a Tau list with 3 regular riptides, 2 different forgeworld riptides, a stormsurge, 4 tetras, and some forgeworld commander.
I got the plus-one to seizing the initiative trait, and for the spare warlord trait from the inquisitorial detachment, I got to infiltrate the inquisitor plus 3 more units. My opponent, accepting that with Coteaz' reroll, I was more likely to seize than not to, let me go first. He deployed 1-2 riptides forward to screen the rest of his forces from my infiltrators. He kept his non-giants off the field to avoid the tons of small arms fire I had available. I infiltrated some of the psychic mini-squads in their rhinos. Turn 1, I killed a riptide and damaged 2 others with a ton of psychic shrieking and a bit of grav and raw firepower.
He played defensively on his turn 1, using a fair bunch of his stims to get 3++ saves.
On my turn 2, another riptide fell. And then around turn 3, tank-shocking made a couple riptides run off the board.
Much of my HQ force made it into the assault with the storm surge (though the blob that got them there had mostly melted away), but broke off using hit and run to take out the enemy commander. This was a mistake. Other forces failed to hold the stormsurge until they could get back, and a failed assault roll meant that his wounded stormsurge and 1 remaining riptide survived, pretty much staying away from my forces in a corner and shooting whatever got close or could be a threat (like Rhinos). He won the primary mission (kill points), I won the maelstrom mission, and then I won on tertiaries. Smarter play could have probably tabled my opponent, but I made a couple of mistakes:

1) I took my assault squad after a small enemy HQ for the tertiary objective of slaying the warlord rather than leaving that to whatever was there to deal with him. This let the stormsurge survive.
2) Much of my first blob got killed because I hadn't internalized the ITC rules for invisibility, and large chunks got smashed by templates.
3) I didn't give my two footslogging henchmen units telepathy, but rather divination. Ditto Coteaz. Big mistake.


Takeaways about my army:
The techmarine didn't bring much to either battle. Time to move hunter's eye to the librarian and find something else to do with the other 85 points.
Scouts can do quite a number on light forces, and getting them to come back in on the outflank (or deepstriking in their land speeders) on a 5+ after being destroyed could have been super awesome for linebreaker, and for continuous damage to an opponent's backfield. Drop the melta squad (useless in both battles) for that.

Takeaways about the meta:
The Magnus list I faced won the tournament. Ynnari made up a third of the tournament's armies. The rest was almost all Tau, space marines, or demons.
I had put meltaguns here and there because I was worried about battle company, but that's obsolete - not one brought battle company. Lots of jetbikes instead.
I enjoy having the ability to generate 2+ rerollable saves in the assault, but most powerful assaulters these days ignore armor saves. Time to drop a ministorum priest.

Thoughts:
Is the meta right for a Hereticus inquisitor with a psyocculum and null rod in a horde of conscripts? With the new psyk-out grenades on 25-point inquisitors with extra warlord traits, commmissars are more obsolete than ever.
I finally have that Tau monkey off my back! I've played games against riptide lists where I've failed to remove a single model. The solution is tons of psychic shriek, and getting the first turn. And the inquisitorial representative detachment plus Coteaz really help with that.
I have yet to face Ynnari, but it strikes me that one may want to abandon conventional wisdom when fighting them: Try not to kill any units entirely, whittle them down instead to the point that them getting a spare shooting action won't be a big deal. Another bit of conventional wisdom that may have to be abandoned: Sometimes, you should stop shooting to make sure you get the assaults you want.

8
The castellan detachment was more or less made for my style of army building, so here we go, tomorrow's tournament list.

1) Can people double check that this is legal?

2) I've been facing a lot of Tau, and am simply trying to outlast the 6-riptide lists.

3) I think I have enough firepower and mobility to vex other armies. I'm afraid of heavy armor, say 6 knights, or the wrong super-heavy. I feel like I'm always a bit light on anti-tank material. Is it glaring?

CAD:
Khan on moondrakkan
bike squad, meltagun
bike squad, grav gun
quad gun battery (experimental rules)
quad gun battery (experimental rules)

Inquisitorial Representative detachment:
Xenos inquisitor, rad & pyschotroke grenades

Castellans of the imperium detachment:
Ministorum priest, meltabombs (they can take meltabombs in the sisters of battle dexes, right?)
Ministorum priest, meltabombs
Techmarine, hunter's eye, bike
Scout squad, meltabombs, land speeder, storm
Scout squad, combi-melta, land speeder storm, multimelta
Bike squad, 2 meltaguns
Bike squad, grav gun
Infantry platoon:
  Platoon command squad, autocannon
  Infantry squad, meltagun
  Infantry squad, meltagun
  Sabre Weapons battery, twin linked lascannon
  Conscripts (48)
  Inquisitorial henchman warband, 2 acolytes, meltagun, 1 psyker, rhino
  Inquisitorial henchman warband, 2 acolytes, meltagun, 1 psyker, rhino
  Inquisitorial henchman warband, 2 acolytes, meltagun, 1 psyker, rhino
  Inquisitorial henchman warband, 2 acolytes, 1 psyker, razorback
Attack bike, multimelta
Wyvern
Wyvern


Basically:
4 bike squads and 1 attack bike with special weapons,
2 blobs led by space marine characters with ministorum priests that scout and then rush the foe
4 rhino equivalents with psykers and/or meltaguns inside rushing up the board
2 scout squads in land speeder storms
5 cheap artillery units

9
Hi there, I've been playing marine/guard MSU for a while and am thinking of trying something very different: A list with a ton of artillery. The idea started when I saw a new experimental marine artillery unit at a tournament, and soon after got my hands on Forgeworld's Astra Militarum book.

Consider: a basilisk is 125 points, but as a sturdier immobile artillery piece it is 75 points, plus it can receive orders. And there are lots of other options for weaponry. If you have some counter-assault units ready to protect the artillery, why not build your army around it?

So in my usual marine-guard-inquisition way, I was thinking of using...
A) Both the new marine "quad mortar support batteries" and the old imperial Armour book's artillery to lay down a lot of firepower at long range,
B) A white scars techmarine-led blob of conscripts backed by an inquisitor with psychotroke grenades and a ministorum priest as a counter-assault unit, and
C) Something to run out there and grab objectives, probably space marine bikes or scouts, and/or inquisitorial henchmen in rhinos or razorbacks.

So... what do you guys think? Could it be viable? What units would do a good job of it? And has anyone tried an artillery-heavy list in a different army? The most artillery I've ever seen on a table is 3 thunderfire cannons. Has anyone seen more?

10
Discussion: Astra Militarum / Best units, worst units
« on: November 22, 2016, 12:59:38 PM »
List your own picks!
At first, I could only find 3 clear top units, so let's make it the 5 best. That way we'll be exchanging new ideas instead of just stating the obvious.

List your top 5 units and least favorite five units.

Best:
1) Wyvern, no explanation necessary.
2) Conscripts (Infantry platoon). They can bubble wrap everything, they can take up board space, they don't much care if they have to snap shoot, and they can hit both T3 and T6 with surprising relative effectiveness, especially when ordered properly. I've seen them shred invisible demons and T6 tyranid MCs. They can excel both in shooting and in the assault. The best part is any time your opponent dedicates firepower to shoot at 3-point models, they're not shooting at anything else more valuable on a per-wound basis.
3) Ministorum priest. Add one of these and your conscripts will take forever to kill. Add two if you're worried about barrage templates.
4) Armored sentinel, because 40 points gets you a bit of long range strength 6 firepower that can hide in cover without getting immobilized and has front armor 12. In the right circumstances, it also makes a great counter-assault unit. There are plenty of assault units that can't touch front armor 12. I'm looking at you, flesh hounds of Khorne, nob-less Ork boyz, and, just to make my point later, Ogryns.
5) Platoon command squad. (Infantry platoon) It's a small, cheap, expendable unit with objective secured and it buffs your other units. What better to hold a backfield objective than one of these, with perhaps sniper rifles or an autocannon? Its small footprint means that it can often hide from sight.

Honorable mention: I want to try forgeworld Sabre defense platforms and manticore platforms, but haven't fielded them yet. Has anyone out there? Are they effective? Also, I can't help enjoying the master of ordnance.

Worst:
1) Rough riders. Just what you'd expect of cavalry in the year 40,000: they can be easily gunned down before they reach anything. If even necessary.
2) Nork Deddog, Sgt. Kell. Who cares about superior toughness when the unit has majority toughness 3? Who cares about LD8 orders when almost everything already has LD7 or 8? Automatic look out sir will basically protect you from snipers and only snipers, who I don't see much in the meta.
3) Ogryns. They can't scratch AV 12,
4) Leman Russ battle tank (& Demolisher). At ballistic skill 3, it may well miss, and meantime you've paid big points (you better believe you'll regret not taking a dozer blade), some of them for a heavy bolter than always snap fires, many more for AV 14 that strength D will bypass or melta will punch through or which deep strikers or assault units will get around. Good for long range firefights? The Demolisher can't catch Tau, and the battle tank can't punch through riptide armor.
5) Hellhound. Why would you hurry up the field with a vehicle which, in the assault, has rear armor 10 just like most everything else? I can't help comparing it very unfavorably with the helldrake.

11
What do I do with the last 20 points?

Gladius:
Khan on Moondrakkan
Chaplain with hunter's eye
Attack bike, multimelta
Attack bike, multimelta
Tactical squad, melta, combimelta, drop pod
Tactical squad, melta, combimelta, drop pod
Tactical squad, melta, combimelta, drop pod
Tactical squad, plasma gun, rhino
Tactical squad, plasma gun, rhino
Tactical squad, rhino
Devestator squad, grav cannon, rhino
Devestator squad, grav cannon, rhino
Scout squad (boltguns), Land speeder storm
Scout squad (boltguns), Land speeder storm with multimelta
Scout squad (sniper rifles)

Allied Astra Militarum:
Company command squad
Ministorum priest
Ministorum priest
Platoon command squad
Infantry squad
Infantry squad
Conscripts (49 models)

Inquisitorial detachment:
Xenos inquisitor, 3 servo skulls, rad grenades
Henchman warband: 2 acolytes, 1 psyker
Henchman warband: 2 acolytes, 1 psyker
Henchman warband: 2 acolytes, 1 psyker

This army uses Khan's scouting rule to move everything up for maximum turn 1 firepower. The tac squad rhinos can move a bit in front of the henchmen warbands so that turn 1, the tac squads disembark, the henchmen embark, the rhinos move up, and boom, super cheap psychic shrieks.
The conscripts, joined by the inquisitor, khan, and the ministorum priest make a devastating assault unit.

If I can't take out my enemy, plan B is to outlast them.

Changes since the last iteration: I have dropped my wyvern for the warbands, and have messed around with the weapon loadouts on the marine squads, since multimeltas have been ineffective.

The question is what do I do with the last 20 points?

12
Discussion: Chaos Daemons / Dearth of Chaos Demons builds
« on: July 28, 2016, 03:54:12 PM »
I've played a number of games against demons now. It took me a while to get the hang of it, but now I feel like I keep seeing the same thing each time:

Mandatory: Flying monstrous creatures, screamers, invisibility.

Optional: Plague drones, nurglings and/or pink horrors hiding in the backfield, seekers.

It's all deathstars. Flying deathstar, 2++ rerollable deathstar, invisible deathstar, tough as nails deathstar. 2-5 unkillable units charging or flying around the table.

Are there competitive builds for demons that don't involve such small unit counts?

13
Upcoming tournament's list:
Khan on Moondrakkan
Chaplain with hunter's eye (ignore cover relic)
Attack bike, multimelta
Attack bike, multimelta
Tactical squad in razorback
Tactical squad with meltagun and combimelta in drop pod
Tactical squad with meltagun and combimelta in drop pod
Tactical squad with meltagun and combimelta in drop pod
Tactical squad with grav cannon in rhino
Tactical squad with grav cannon in rhino
Devestator squad with two multimeltas in rhino
Devestator squad with two multimeltas in rhino
Scout squad (bolters), Land speeder storm
Scout squad (bolters), Land speeder storm with multimelta
Scout squad, sniper rifles

Astra Militarum allied detachment:
Company command squad, Master of Ordnance
Ministorum priest
Ministorum priest
Platoon command squad
Infantry squad
Infantry squad
Conscripts (42)
Wyvern

Inquisition detachment:
Ordo Xenos inquisitor, rad grenades, 3 servo-skulls



Deployment: All (possibly except chaplain) independent characters join the conscript blob, khan grants them scout. Servo skulls prevent my opponent from scouting or infiltrating.
Turn 1: Almost everything starts in range of the enemy and lets loose with awesome firepower.
Turn 2: The conscript blob can assault anything that has come close. Rad grenades plus ministorum priests can hit like a ton of bricks.
Turn 3: If the blob comes up against something that can withstand it, it can hit and run into the opponent's deployment zone and multi-assault backfield units.
Turn 4-7: If I'm not winning by using crushing firepower, sheer model mass (11 vehicles, 135 other models), almost all of which have objective secured, can hold the objectives and hopefully last 7 turns.




Previous tournament's list:

Gladius:
Khan on Moondrakkan
Chaplain with hunter's eye (ignore cover relic)
Attack bike, multimelta
Assault squad with 2 flamers in drop pod
Tactical squad with flamer in drop pod
Tactical squad with meltagun and combimelta in drop pod
Tactical squad with meltagun and combimelta in drop pod
Tactical squad with meltagun and combimelta in drop pod
Tactical squad with grav cannon in rhino
Tactical squad with grav cannon in rhino
Devestator squad with two multimeltas in rhino
Devestator squad with two multimeltas in rhino
Scout squad (bolters), Land speeder storm
Scout squad (bolters), Land speeder storm with multimelta
Bike scout squad, cluster mines and meltabombs

Astra Militarum allied detachment:
Company command squad
Ministorum priest
Ministorum priest
Platoon command squad
Infantry squad
Infantry squad
Conscripts (47)
Wyvern

14
Discussion: Astra Militarum / More bodies than bullets?
« on: January 21, 2016, 07:05:02 PM »
I don't own 305 guardsmen, but I don't see what someone with a normal army is supposed to do against an army like this, which utilizes Khan to cover almost half the board before turn 1 starts and provide hit and run and ATSKNF. Shoot them all you want and the conscripts will keep coming.

For only 1681 points so far, there's still room to pick out a few key toys, like more psychic levels or some lascannons.

60 Company command squad

Infantry platoon x4:
   30 Platoon command squad x4
   50 Infantry squad x4
   50 Infantry squad x4
   150 Conscripts (50) x4

150 Khan on moondrakkan
63 Bike squad
63 Bike squad

Librarius conclave:
65 Librarian
80 Librarian, bike, meltabombs
80 Librarian, bike, meltabombs

15
So I was clearing out some deadwood from my list to make room for some new recently bought models, and found myself with 175 spare points. I'd appreciate advice on what to do with those points.

Combined arms primary detachment, White scars, Khan as warlord
150 Khan on his bike
93 Bike squad, 2 grav guns
83 Bike squad, 2 meltaguns
105 Drop pod x3
100 Thunderfire cannon

Formation: Librarius conclave
100 Librarian, force sword, bike, storm shield, meltabombs
115 Librarian, lvl 2, terminator armor
100 Librarian, storm shield, lvl 2, force axe

Combined arms detachment, Astra Militarum
125 Company command squad, 4 meltguns, astropath
75 Ministorum priest x3
120 Veteran squad, demolitions, 3 meltaguns
40 Platoon command squad, autocannon
120 A 20 man double-infantry-squad blob with 2 autocannons
75 Special weapon squad, 3 plasma guns
144 Conscripts (48 men)
65 Wyvern
65 Wyvern

1675 points


The plan:
Khan and the librarian on a bike can scout one or both infantry blobs forward, preferably in the middle of the table. The bike squads can scout or outflank.
The wyverns (vehicle thunderfire equivalents) sit in the thunderfire-boosted terrain, tearing apart infantry.
The guardsmen squads with special weapons come out of the drop pods, probably augmented by the librarius conclave. Orders from their command squads can give them ignore cover. "Demolitions" means that the entire 10 man squad has meltabombs and one has a demolition charge. I have a pretty good chance of getting invisibility or endurance with all those psykers, so dropping them in the middle of an opponent's formation  will force an opponent to focus a lot of fire on them or scatter like crazy.
Ministorum priests are pocket chaplains (fearless, zealot) who usually grant their unit rerollable saves in the assault. combine with terminator armor and storm shields for 2+/3++ rerollable saves in the assault.

This has been a really good list idea for me. I ran a variant at a local tournament.
I've been able to defeat tournament demons lists (the 2+ rerollable save with invisibility variety) with massed firepower, hit and run, and my own rerollable saves.
I've been able to defeat tournament space wolves/white scars list by alpha striking my opponent's massive artillery and then using volume of dice with hit and run to take out his super elite cavalry.
With hordes of scouting bodies and potential outflankers and deepstrikers, I can control the field pretty well, and restrict mobility.

So... what do I bring to top this off? I can draw from either codex, any slot but marine fast attack, which I've maxed out.

I'm thinking camo on the wyverns for 2+ cover saves, but that still leaves me 145 points to play with.

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