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Messages - Odras

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Discussion: Eldar / Re: Wraith Army
« on: August 09, 2017, 04:14:16 PM »
2- 6 man flamer wraiths
1-5 man gun wraiths
3-2 man shadow spector squads each with an exarch
3 wave serpents with the upgraded that let them advance 2d6 and get a -1 to hit when they advance, spirit stones and 3 shruiken cannons each
The yncarne

Might want to check your points on that, I calculate that being over 2000 slightly. I think it could be because of your wave serpent upgrades, the upgrades to the serpents to let them advance 2D6, and the upgrade to get a -1 to hit when advancing are two different upgrades.

I run a fairly similar list though, I don't have any shadow spectres painted yet so I am not using them at the moment. I am running:
5 Wraithguard - D-Scythes
5 Wraithguard - D-Scythes
5 Wraithguard - Wraithcannons
5 Wraithblades - Ghostswords

4 Wave Serpents - Twin Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, 1 * Vectored Engines

Farseer - Witchblade
Warlock - Witchblade

It runs a similar strategy to you move up turn one, rely on the durability of the wave serpents to survive the opponents initial shooting then disembark the death ball and let the soul bursting begin. I ideally would like to include Yvraine, but I am not sure what I would drop and I am restricted by the detachments with numbers of HQs as well. This has been successful so far. I do enjoy laughing at the plasma spammers trying to take down the serpents.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: Wraith Army
« on: August 05, 2017, 06:24:59 AM »
The way you have it, it can't be a legal detachment.

You could go something along the lines of:

Vanguard Detachment:
Wraithseer - 200 With D-Cannon
5 Wraithguard D-Scythes + Serpent - 368
5 Wraithguard D-Scythes + Serpent - 368
5 Wraithblades Swords + Serpent - 318
Total: 1254

Supreme Command Detachment:
Total: 259

Superheavy Aux Detachment
1 Wraithknight - 502

That puts you at a total of 2015 points, you could tweak it slightly to bring it below 2015 points. Maybe take a regular farseer rather than Eldrad, or drop the wraithknight and take 2 hemlocks instead. General advice though for running a wraith army would be to start with the Vanguard detachment.

Slightly different situation that I encounted in my most recent game. The Yncarne was in combat with one unit, it killed that unit with it's attacks and therefore triggered a soul burst on itself. The question I had was is does it consolidate it's 3" before or after it's soulburst action. This makes a difference because I had the opportunity to consolidate into another unit, and if I could soulburst after the consolidation then I could choose to do another fight phase with my soulburst action rather than having to charge again.

Additionally, when does the soulburst fight action occur in the priority order for fighting. If I have charged, and my opponent uses the interrupt stratagem, so normally it would be I attack with one unit and then they attack with another unit, what happens if with that first unit I kill something and trigger a soulburst action and choose to fight with that action, does this then go into the usual priority therefore allowing my opponent to attack with one of his units before the soulburst fight or do I make the soulburst attacks straight away.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« on: July 30, 2017, 05:29:44 PM »
Interestingly the BAO list that has gone 5 wins 0 losses so far with 2 hemlocks has not paid for the spirit stones. I haven't had time to go through all of the other lists to see if there are any other Hemlocks or Autachs to see if they paid for their abilities.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« on: July 25, 2017, 06:21:41 PM »
That is the exact same line of thought I had previously SilverBlue, however if you look at the entry that Shadenuat has posted the Company Champion, in index Imperial 1. It has an ability called combat shield, which also has a price listed of 4 points. The FAQ states:

Q: Is the cost of the combat shield included in the Company
Champion and Company Champion on Bike’s points?

A: No. This (and all similar ‘other wargear’ found in the
points values section) must be paid for in the same way
as a model’s weapons.

To me this indicates that if there is a price for that item you have to pay for it no matter where it is listed. The only possible argument against it I could see is that the combat shield is not an option for any other units that I know of.

I checked through ETC 2017 lists and these upgrades cost points in them too, if that's of any additional help.
Yea I checked through those lists too before posting this, they were one of the ones that did include it but there were also others that did not.

The only problem with issues like this is that it leads to possibly illegal lists in tournaments and gives TOs a lot of work to do to ensure this doesn't happen.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« on: July 23, 2017, 11:47:44 PM »
Thanks for that, I had not managed to find that example. To me that makes it fairly clear that you do need to pay for it, and that it applies for anything that has a points cost.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« on: July 23, 2017, 11:13:08 PM »
Basically, you can draw upon other indexes to see how it works in them and their FAQ (which means you pay, since marine captain or whatever does, while chaos lord doesn't, so on, so forth)

Do you mind giving some more details of these similar instances from other books? What ability does a marine captain pay for?

I have attempted to go through the other books, but I am the first to admit that with the deluge of new information in 8th I do not have a good understanding of any faction outside of Aeldari.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« on: July 23, 2017, 10:30:17 PM »
you are best to assume that the mistake was in putting it in "Abilities" rather than "Wargear" or "Equipment".

The Iron Halo is not a piece of gear with a point cost, but Spirit Stones and the Forceshield do have point costs.

I agree that is probably the safest assumption and the one that I have made in my lists for now due to my opponents opinion on it, but what evidence is there to suggest this is the correct assumption? To me it seems equally as likely that the mistake was simply using the same name for 2 different things. Most people who I have talked to that said the same thing you said were basing it off the forceshield and forgetting that wraithblades have an option to use a forceshield.

The iron halo is also not an optional upgrade for any other units in the index.

I don't like the idea of basing things off, "that is clearly a mistake so lets play it this way instead of how it was written". Understandably, the moment a FAQ comes out saying that the forceshield / spiritstones should be under wargear they should be payed for, but based on the rules as they currently are I see no argument for abilities needing to be payed for.

To me making assumptions about what is a mistake and what is not is opening a massive can of worms. Do we say hemlocks no longer auto hit, because quite a few people are convinced that is a mistake? Do we increase the points cost of Bobby G because some people think he has been undercosted? Where does it stop?

Discussion: Eldar / Points cost for unit abilities
« on: July 23, 2017, 05:00:20 PM »
Hi all, I am wanting some further opinion on this as it has divided my usual play group and I have found conflicting opinions else where on the internet.

Do you pay points cost for a units abilities? Things that are listed not in the wargear section of the profile but under the abilities section.

The units this applies to from Eldar are the Hemlock and the Autach. These have Spiritstones, and a forceshield listed in their respective abilities.

The people that have argued for having to pay for them have simply stated that since there are costs for them in the index you have to pay for them. My counter argument is that both of those items are optional pieces of wargear that can be taken on other units and the costs are there to cover those units. Additionally the index states "Points per model (Does not include wargear), which to me means that you have to add the cost of anything listed in the wargear section, or the wargear options section.

No where I can see does it indicate that you have to pay for abilities that a unit has. It this is the case, why are some abilities free and others are not simply because they have the same name as a piece of wargear. For example Iron Halo on the space marine captain is an ability that gives a 4++ save, whereas the autach has an forceshield ability that gives it a 4++ save. Why would you have to pay for one but not the other.

Let me know your thoughts, and if I have been blind and simply missed one of the FAQs clarifying this please let me know. Additionally is there any other instances of abilities sharing a name with wargear in other factions?

Great post! It is interesting to see, I have been trying to work out whether our good units are undercosted or our bad units are over costed.

There is some weird ordering now that is hard to get your head around in 8th edition. I have only encountered this in the shooting phase. A unit splits their fire and kills one of my units with the first part of their fire, I then soul burst and kill the unit that was shooting and they don't get to make the rest of their attacks.

I don't have the rule book with me at the moment, but from what my opponent and I read it meant that the attacks were resolved separately and therefore they were unable to make the rest of their attacks when they were dead, however it wasn't exactly clear and we did debate it for a while as neither of us had conclusive proof. From memory I believe it was because of the wording of soulburst and the phrase "The unit can immediately do one of the following..." that convinced us that it happened in between the attacks.

It would be great if we could get some clarification on how this works and if it does work the same in both the shooting phase and fight phase.

Edit: Another interesting situation. I kill an imperial knight that triggers it's explode on death and also triggers my soulburst on death. If I use my soulburst to move away and get out of range of the explosion what happens then? Do I suffer the effects of the explosion or not? I encountered this with a recent opponent and as the way they are written both effects are triggered on the death of the model and there is no clear answer. However we decided to play it as it does get affected by the explosion as it seemed more logical that the explosion happened at the same time as the start of the move.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: Oh my godsh... Harlequins are the bomb!
« on: July 12, 2017, 10:37:21 PM »
Harlequins are definitely able to be used as a stand alone army now which is a massive step up from the previous edition. However they do still struggle against anything that auto hits, and what I have found is that while the 4+ invul save is better than the 5+ they used to have, it still doesn't keep them alive long once their transports are gone or you voluntarily disembark them.

I play a wraithguard based Ynnari army, and I have both played against a full Harlequin army and added a small detachment of harlequins to my army.

I found that my wraith army, with D-Scythes and Hemlocks was quite good at bringing down star weavers and the harlequins inside then died quite easily to shuriken cannon fire. When I added them to my army, I took 2 full squads with fusion pistols and only the base melee weapon, a troupe master and 3 starweavers. I found that they were better staying in their transport shooting out with the fusion pistols against the big things, and then using volume of attacks to take out small things when they eventually did charge although they didn't get too much of a chance to do that as they dies not long after getting out.

I agree with skyweavers being pretty poor at the moment.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: Thoughts on 8th Edition Aeldari/Ynnari
« on: July 11, 2017, 03:50:44 PM »
There are three things that I feel are a problem with Asuryani this edition:

  • Our units are too expensive. A large number of our units received points increases and are now very expensive for what they can do.
  • The new rules for moving and shooting heavy weapons is a heavy nerf to us, while at the same time being a buff to many others. Any one who was previously unable to move and shoot heavy weapons now can which is a bonus, but for us who could always do it on our jetbikes, tanks and monsters it is a big nerf as we are designed for movement so sitting still is sub optimal,
     and moving means -1 to hit.
  • Losing a lot of our movement abilities, battle focus, assault phase movement also hurt. To me that was the defining ability of the eldar army.

I wouldn't say that Aeldari as a whole are suffering, Dark Eldar seem to be in an ok place, and Harlequins are feeling pretty good from what I have seen. Ynnari seems to be keeping the Asuryani alive at the moment though it remains to be seen how well people adapt to playing against soulburst.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: Thoughts on Wraithguard in 8th Edition
« on: June 25, 2017, 04:09:53 PM »
T3   T4   T4   T4   T5   T5   T6   T7   T8   T8
5+   6+   3+   3+   2+   4+   4+   3+   3+   2+
1W   1W   1W   2W   5W   6W   12W   8W   12W   16W

0.83   0.67   0.56   0.93   0.89   1.33   1.33   0.83   0.56   0.44

I have modelled the Axe in the Eldar spreadsheet if you are interested.

My thoughts are that while yes the axe and shield combo has a massive survivability boost, it has a damage output decrease in most circumstances and it is a massive increase in points cost. The Axe + Shield costs nearly 4 times what the swords do.

Discussion: Eldar / Re: Thoughts on 8th Edition Aeldari/Ynnari
« on: June 23, 2017, 06:26:33 PM »
Great work!

Just on the windriders, they haven't been increased by as much as you think. They used to cost 17 for Shuriken Catapults, or 27 for scatter laser / shuriken cannon. Now they cost 30 for shuriken catapults which have been buffed, 32 for shuriken cannons and 35 for scatter lasers. So a slight points increase, seemingly in line with all the other Eldar things. Unfortunately I think that the shuriken cannon upgrade is obvious upgrade. because you have to pay for the twin catapults now, it is effectively only a 2 points upgrade to the cannon. This applies to all of the underslung weapons on our vehicles too. Yes the catapults now have 4 shots, but they are only 12" and Str4. The only target they will wound on the same roll as Str6 is T7.

The mathhammer I have been doing agrees with your experiences, as it does with the few games I have played. Crimson Hunters, Hemlocks, Nightspinners and Shuriken Cannon Windriders are some of the most points efficient options we have, and the wave serpent also seems a very good choice when it's defensive efficiency is taken into consideration.

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