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Messages - Celerior

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1
Discussion: Astra Militarum / Re: Combined Squad Stratagem
« on: January 26, 2018, 10:48:22 AM »
Needs an FAQ, I guess.

2
After a few months out, I'm wading back into the carnage! I've bought a few models that can be converted to rough riders. I have about 50% of my list below, but don't know what I should do with the heavy support slots. Basically, I'm asking what heavy support choices would go well with this. I have about 1142 points to spend on heavy support choices or whatever I need to take out armored targets. What units do good job of that these days?

On the guard side, I can field at least one of any heavy support choice, but no more than 2 of any.
On the marine side, I own at least one of everything but centurions, but the only thing I have lots of is devastator marines.

So without further ado, the list so far!

Mordion Brigade

Company commander, power fist, boltgun
Company commander, boltgun (Warlord, kurov's Aquila)
Company commander, boltgun (maybe the dagger relic)
Infantry squad, boltgun, plasma gun
Infantry squad, boltgun, plasma gun
Infantry squad, boltgun, plasma gun
Infantry squad, boltgun
Infantry squad, boltgun
Infantry squad
Special weapon squad, 2 plasma guns, demolition charge
Command squad, 4 plasma guns
Astropath
Rough riders, 2 plasma guns
Rough riders, 2 plasma guns
Scout sentinel, autocannon
UNKNOWN HEAVY SUPPORT
UNKNOWN HEAVY SUPPORT
UNKNOWN HEAVY SUPPORT
Valkyrie, lascannon, multiple rocket pods


Space marine (raven guard?) battalion detachment:

Captain, storm bolter (teeth of terra upgrade, 1 CP)
Lieutenant, storm bolter, power sword
Scout squad, bolters
Scout squad, bolters
Scout squad, bolters, heavy bolter
UNKNOWN HEAVY SUPPORT
UNKNOWN HEAVY SUPPORT
UNKNOWN HEAVY SUPPORT

vs. gunlines:
Valkyrie delivers special units up close to target characters with the Mordion order and plasma, then the power fisted company commander leads a suicidal charge! Scouts blitz. Rough riders work the flanks. Infantry squads bring up the rear and wipe out light infantry.

vs. blitz lists:
Valkyrie delivers as above, scouts and infantry can bubble wrap and take out enemy hordes.

3
Discussion: THE LIST / Re: Dark Angel List 2K points
« on: January 03, 2018, 07:15:16 PM »
Doesn't Azrael provide bonus command points?

Yikes - so few bodies, and so little anti-horde! Also, an opponent with several psykers at his disposal will do a lot of damage with smite.

4
Discussion: Battle Reports / Re: 2000 point tournament report
« on: December 04, 2017, 06:35:23 AM »
Game 4: Hoo boy, here come the mistakes...

So I got matched up against another guard player, with 3 punishers, a shadowsword, creed, a relic of cadia, 5 primaris psykers, 2 quad mortars, a conscript squad and some infantry squads. And some ratlings. Search and destroy (corner) deployment.

At first I was really clever. I stuffed a ton of characters in the Vendetta to get the +1 on the roll off for first turn. I got first turn. My first mistake was not bringing in the conscripts immediately from outflank. There wasn't any fantastic placement for them because the flank where I really wanted them, some ratlings had blocked access. Meanwhile, my scouts killed 1 infantry squad and used it to avoid tank overwatch. My devastators came out of their transports and, with the mordions coming out of the valkyrie, took out the shadowsword, but I acted stupidly/instinctually and brought my devastators closer to their target, which also meant that they were closer to the punishers, and didn't last till turn 2. I should have also moved razorbacks to block line of sight to them from practically anywhere but where the shadowsword was.

So on his turn, I lost the devastators to the quad launchers and the punishers, the scouts (to smite), and most of the mordions, with the rest of them tied up by the conscript squad (which I needed to kill because I had marked it for death).

Then I flew the empty Valkyrie over enemy space rather than hover, which was a mistake on two counts: First of all, I needed to go for the kill at that point rather than try to keep a flyer that had already served its purpose alive. Secondly, it flew right into a bunch of smites followed by overlapping fields of fire from the punishers. I dropped my scions and they almost took out one of the punishers, but it survived and then I made the mistake of charging (defensive gunners plus double punisher cannon and heavy bolters equals needlessly dead squad for just one command point)

My tanks lasted a long time, but smite took its toll eventually, plus overlapping fields of fire. In the end I lost 17 to 15, since we had both achieved our objectives. It could have been 17-17 if I had decided to score turn by turn, or a solid win for me if I had kept the unit he had marked for death way in my corner, because between his mortars being way in the backfield and my alpha strike on his only other unit with range greater than 24, I could have outranged him all day...

I lost game 5 too, to a Tyranid brigade. I will post that later...

5
Discussion: Battle Reports / Re: 2000 point tournament report
« on: December 03, 2017, 08:14:09 AM »
Battle 1: Facing a cadian list: 2 stormswords, another baneblade variant, 6 mortar squads, a couple of primaris psykers and company commanders, 2 conscript squads, a couple of special weapon squads with plasma, a culexus... and Celestine. I got the first turn, despite him having less units.

My conscripts outflanked using the dagger. They popped up on one flank and, using one sabre's support, the FRFSRF order and the Mordion stratagem, flattened 20 conscripts. My devastators badly damaged one of the stormswords, and it was finished off using the hellfire rounds stratagem (possibly in round 2?). The Valkyrie delivered its plasma gunners and they targeted Celestine using the Mordion order, and killed her, but she came back elsewhere.

My opponent took out the Valkyrie and his mortars did a lot of damage here and there. My forward plasma forces were destroyed. The Cadian relic helped him. Celestine had charged back across the board and tore up an infantry squad. She was locked in with a sabre platform, so I couldn't shoot her or leave combat.

Worried about what she might do in one more turn (tear up a couple of devastator squads?), I charged her with my chapter master and whiffed big time, but used "honor the chapter" to swing again, and killed her, and got all 3 command points back! The next couple turns involved his tanks on one side of a ridge and my devastators on the other. A furious infantry battle with scions dropping to take out some mortars ensued to the sides of that ridge. We both had lots of firepower, and used it to take out most of anything that dared show itself. I won out by having some conscripts surviving on one objective on his side of the board, and using my captain with jump pack to run up and contest one objective that one of his super-heavies was sitting on. And holding my home objective with devastator squads. I won the maelstrom mission by 1 point too, and had all 3 tertiaries. Score: 19-3. We ran low on time mainly because he was fairly slow to roll and had to look up some things. I think we only got to my half of turn 5 after he ran out of time (at this tournament, each player gets 15 minutes out of the last half hour).

Note: lots of mortars rerolling everything can kill guardsmen like flies, but raven guard marines in cover are fairly well off.

Game 2:
Facing 6 dreadnights, 1 culexus (again!), 3 acolytes, a company commander, and 3 scout sentinels. Again I got 1st turn, and spread out my front guys (conscripts, scouts, outflanking infantry squad) so that my opponent had limited deployment options for his dreadnights when they showed up. And my devastators hid behind some nice cover. So the drednights spent turn 1 mainly killing scouts and the infantry squad and the conscripts.
On my turn 2, my devastators came out swinging and my flyer delivered its plasma, but my opponent rolled really really really well, and I took out just one dreadnight. His luck didn't hold up, though. He kept trying to kill my flyer, probably because it was right in front of him and keeping him from shooting my characters, but it survived. Since he had range problems and my devastators were all in cover (and could sometimes avoid being in his LOS, He had just one acolyte left on turn 5 and I tabled him turn 6. Final score: 17-3, but had he shot at my plane just a bit less, he'd have had 3 more points.

Game 3:
Facing alaitoc and Ynnari. He got first turn and did a lot of damage, partly because he was misusing Tempest launchers, giving them 48" range. Someone at another table caught this on turn 2 or 3, and we sort tried to retcon. I'd played this guy before and it's just one of those honest mistakes. Dude. Dark reapers. Perfect against Ravenguard. I hit his large unit on my turn 1 after Yvraine and them ruined my devastators' day with two volleys that maybe aimed a bit too far, but even if they hadn't, dark reapers are great. I don't know why he fielded only three squads! I'd take more, with tempest launchers, and hide them out of sight. I ran up and recovered the relic but couldn't hit my tertiary targets and he won the maelstrom mission, so in the end he won narrowly, 11-9.

Notes: Gettting turn 1 is a Big Deal. I wonder if the winner of turn 1 will win all 5 games. I don't think I'll be satisfied that my list and tactics work unless I can win at least one game while going second.

6
Discussion: Battle Reports / 2000 point tournament report
« on: December 02, 2017, 01:17:11 AM »
Tournament in CT, USA this weekend. Here's the army I'm bringing. Restrictions include maximum of 1 of each detachment type:

Mordion battalion detachment
Company commander, boltgun [warlord]
Company commander, boltgun
Infantry squad, plasma gun, boltgun, heavy bolter
Infantry squad, plasma gun, boltgun, heavy bolter
Conscripts (30)
Platoon commander, plasma pistol, chainsword
Command squad, 4 plasma guns
Command squad, 4 plasma guns
Sabre platform, defensive searchlight
Sabre platform, defensive searchlight
Valkyrie, lascannon, hellstrike missiles

Raven guard spearhead detachment:
Captain, storm bolter, power fist, jump pack
Lieutenant, storm bolter, chain sword
Scouts (sgt. has chainsword)
Scouts, heavy bolter
Devastator squad, 2 lascannons, 2 plasma cannons, armorium cherub
Devastator squad, 2 lascannons, 2 plasma cannons, armorium cherub
Devastator squad, 1 lascannon, 1 plasma cannon, 2 missile launchers
Razorback, twin lascannons, hunter-killer missile, storm bolter
Razorback, twin assault cannon, hunter-killer missile, storm bolter
Razorback, twin assault cannon, hunter-killer missile, storm bolter

Militarum tempestus vanguard detachment
Tempestor prime, command rod
Tempestus scions, 2 plasma guns, plasma pistol
Tempestus command squad, 4 plasma guns
Astropath
Astropath
Astropath
Astropath


Tactics vs. deepstrikers: Infantry squads and scout squads run perimeter duty when deploying. Infantry squads can rush forward turn 2 if useful.

Tactics vs. gunline:
First of all, put the devastators in or behind the razorbacks, with both marine characters there to buff everyone. Put the sabre platforms behind the tanks, out of sight. On turn 1, the vehicles reveal the devastators and sabres. The Valkyrie will deliver two command squads and a company commander to point blank range, where he will probably order them to shoot at characters.

Tactics vs. physical rushing lists:
Use the conscripts and infantry to physically block access to the marines for a turn. Their improved Mordion overwatch should help, too.

Tactics vs. balanced lists:
The general idea is to do what Ravenguard does best: long range gunline. The many drops of this list gives me a chance to see where most opponents have deployed before deploying my own big guns, and play the range game if I have notably more firepower at 48". The infantry nature of my firepower lets me hide them out of sight on turn 1 in a way that stormravens can't.
I can punish anyone who disperses his army across the field by hitting isolated things with scions, and I can kill key characters more reliably and quickly than snipers with my special plasma delivery. If my opponent has way too much anti-air firepower, I can always use the dagger to outflank some plasma, instead.

Battle reports to follow...

7
Discussion: THE LIST / Re: 2000 Point Baneblade List
« on: November 26, 2017, 09:53:09 PM »
Since half of the hevy weapons are inside the baneblades, I'm wondering what real benefit Creed and all those officers provide. Creed is 40 points for 2 command points. You have more order givers than you need. You could free up about 100 points pretty easily, IMO.

My first set of concerns for your list were playing the mission, hitting ravenguard/alaitoc/rangers/flyers, and scion style blitzes.

Your relic of cadia combined with mortars is almost a decent answer to the hard to hit issues, but imagine you're facing an army with ravenguard devastators (I've found them to be money), and those devastators are hiding in terrain out of line of sight. With all your rerolls, their -1 to be hit and their 2+ saves are going to make it hard to make a dent. Even worse, suppose your opponent has a transport out of sight. You're going to have to move out.

My opinion is that every competitive army these days should darn well have something with BS 3+ for hitting flyers. And especially vehicles, which deal with degradation charts.

8
The most recent iteration of my list is at the bottom of this thread:

http://thewarmaster.com/index.php?topic=8104.0

9
Discussion: THE LIST / Re: 2000 Astra Militarum (mostly) tourney list
« on: November 22, 2017, 07:10:04 PM »
Since the conscript nerf, here's how I've been heading:

Raven guard battalion:
Captain, jump pack, power fist, storm bolter
Lieutenant, chainsword, storm bolter (buy him the sword relic if useful, both characters probably in the razorback)
Scout squad, bolters, missile launcher
Scout squad, bolters, heavy bolter
Scout squad, bolters
Devestator squad, armorium cherub, 2 lascannons, 2 plasma cannons x2 (both probably hiding in the stormraven)
Razorback, twin assault cannons, storm bolter, hunter-killer missile
Stormraven, Typhoon missile launcher, twin plasma cannons, hurricane bolters (and the base rockets)

Militarum tempestus battalion:
Tempestor prime, rod x2
Scion squad, 2 meltaguns, plasma pistol x2
Scion squad, 2 plasma guns, plasma pistol
Scion command squad, 4 plasma guns x2

Mordion battalion:
Company commander, boltgun x2
Infantry squad, plasma gun, bolt gun, heavy bolter x2
Conscripts (30)
Special weapon squad, 3 plasma guns
Astropath x4
Sabre defense platform, defensive searchlight x2

Pre-battle setup:
Take the chapter master upgrade.
One of the company commander takes the dagger relic and outflanks with either the special weapon squad (to target characters) or the conscript squad.

Deployment tactics:
Scouts (in front) and astropaths (at side and rear) form an outer perimeter if useful to prevent deep striking. Guard may form an inner perimeter, or hide in cover.
Razorback deploys ahead of the stormraven.

Battle tactics:
Astropaths make the conscripts fearless.
A searchlight can combine with the mordion stratagem and the first rank fire order in scary ways (if the order goes off the unit kills 12 marines on average within 12")
On turn 1, I can arrange things so that the storm raven, both emerging squads of devastators, and the razorback all benefit from the chapter master and lieutenant bubbles without dropping into hover mode, either.

Strategy:
While the marines are basically a gun line, the scions and reserved guard unit make it dangerous for an enemy to break formation and run ahead of wrapping units. In case of an enemy rush assault list, I have enough physical guard bodies to prevent first turn charges against my devastators, and enough scouts and astropaths to prevent deep strikers from landing close to anything vital in the first two turns.

10
The tournament list I've been running (guard with raven guard) already takes an army like yours (in-yo-face by deep strike) into account. I bring 3 scout squads to prevent deep strikes anywhere near my main lines. Then behind that I can deploy a couple of guard infantry squads and a conscript squad. All before you get close to the devastators who provide the real firepower. I'd recommend you get your own scout squad, to claim a plot of land in the midfield before your opponent blocks you from deep striking near anything but their outer-most layer of bubble wrap. Scions can get close to your characters unless you're really cautious. So I don't view your army as particularly dangerous.

I too would recommend a lieutenant over another captain.

11
Discussion: THE LIST / Re: 2000 Astra Militarum (mostly) tourney list
« on: October 15, 2017, 01:44:24 PM »
The captain comes in at 76 points with his storm bolter. Lias costs an extra 119 points, and the whole idea is to have the devastators wrapped by the guardsmen. He's not a good fit for what I'm trying to do.

You're probably right that I have an unnecessarily large number of conscripts. The brigade detachment lets me revive a bunch. I think I will drop 10 of them, and use those 30 points with the 15 I already have free to pick up one more special weapons squad. Valhallan, so I can revive them.

12
Discussion: THE LIST / Re: CSM 2k Brigade
« on: October 15, 2017, 10:19:57 AM »
It feels strong against imperial guard. Lascannons to take out the russes, and respawning tides of traitors for overwhelming guardsmen and bubble-wrapping the tanks against scions.

It feels weak against power armor. Your anti-infantry cultists are better against trash like guardsmen, and your predators are geared for shooting tanks and can only kill a couple models a turn. A marine gunline (esp. ravenguard or ultramarines) would be a problem for you.

13
Discussion: THE LIST / 2000 Astra Militarum (mostly) tourney list
« on: October 15, 2017, 09:03:40 AM »
Vostroyan (+6" range for rapid fire & heavy weapons) battalion:
HQ:
Company commander, chainsword & boltgun WARLORD (has command point warlord trait and relic)
Company commander, chainsword & boltgun
TROOPS:
Conscripts (30)
Conscripts (20)
Infantry squad, boltgun, lascannon, plasma gun
Infantry squad, boltgun, lascannon, plasma gun
Infantry squad, boltgun, lascannon, plasma gun
ELITE:
Special weapon squad, 3 plasma guns
Special weapon squad, 3 plasma guns
Commissar, boltgun
Commissar, boltgun
Astropath, laspistol
Astropath, laspistol

Ravenguard spearhead detachment:
Captain, storm bolter, chainsword (upgrade to chapter master with teeth of terra)
Devestator squad, armorium cherub, lascannon, plasma cannon
Devestator squad, armorium cherub, lascannon, plasma cannon
Devestator squad, armorium cherub, lascannon, plasma cannon
Devestator squad, armorium cherub, heavy bolter, plasma cannon

Imperium brigade:
HQ:
Company commander (Valhallan)
Tempestor prime, command rod
Tempestor prime, command rod
TROOPS:
Scout squad
Scout squad
Conscripts (30) (Valhallan)
Conscripts (20) (Valhallan)
Tempestus scions, 2 plasma guns, plasma pistol
Tempestus scions, 2 plasma guns, plasma pistol
ELITE:
Tempestus command squad, 4 melta guns
Tempestus command squad, 4 plasma guns
Astropath, laspistol
Astropath, laspistol
Astropath, laspistol
FAST ATTACK:
Cyberwolf (space wolves)
Cyberwolf (space wolves)
Cyberwolf (space wolves)
HEAVY SUPPORT:
Sabre battery: defensive searchlight
Sabre battery: defensive searchlight
Heavy weapon squad, mortars (valhallan)

15 points left to burn, if anyone has a suggestion I'm open.

Setup: At 16 command points plus refunds when either player uses command points, I will probably have over 24 command points to use, total, so spend some! Turn the captain into a chapter master. Give him the teeth of terra. Probably get the dagger relic. Probably get some command points refunded by my warlord trait and relic.

Strategy:
Generally, gunline. Lots of devastator squads and 30" range plasma guns. Shoot anything that moves.

Tactics/feints:
Against anything that isn't an assault army:
Use the dagger to outflank 30 conscripts (probably Valhallans) and buff them with all the psychic goodies: fearless, +1 armor and -1 to be shot at. Probably use a searchlight to buff their flashlights. If my opponent shoots them, use the take cover (go to ground) stratagem to give them 3+ saves. (Make sure a few of them are in cover so that the last few can get 2+ saves!) If my opponent kills them all, send in the next wave! If my opponent ignores them, they will probably be able to assault something valuable by turn 2.

Against armies with lots of deep strike: The scouts (and astropaths or wolves on the flanks) prevent deep strikes turn 1 from threatening the conscripts.
Turn 2, the wolves rush forward and take over that duty from the deceased forces. (If my opponent is shooting the wolves on turn 1, then he's not shooting the true value targets)

Against assault armies, the captain can provide some counter-assault punch.

14
Discussion: Astra Militarum / Fuzzy rule writing
« on: October 09, 2017, 05:57:35 AM »
My reading of the guard codex indicates that as long as one of your detachments is all one regiment, you can have another detachment with all sorts of guard bits and pieces, and still have access to the stratagems. Why would anyone do that? Well, astra militarum guys from an "imperium" detachment may not get the regimental bonus (to range, casualties, whatever) but they WOULD have access to the appropriate stratagems and orders.

What I'm saying is I think it's legal to outflank 3 Tallarn units while ordering your Mordian infantry to form firing squads and then send in the next wave of valhallan conscripts, all while your detachment of catachan artillery rerolls its dice for number of shots.

Can anyone back me up on this reading or refute it?

Can anyone suggest how they'd most like to abuse it?

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