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Messages - Celerior

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Discussion: THE LIST / Re: 2,000pt SM list with guard allies
« on: July 16, 2017, 06:17:51 PM »
Frankly, I don't think 40 bodies is enough.

Next combat patrol, I plan on bringing 100 conscripts, an astropath, company commander, and commissar. I also plan on skipping some shooting phases. Just to see how it deforms the game.

General Discussion / Re: My thoughts on 8th editio
« on: July 11, 2017, 10:03:35 AM »
Adjusting to 8th edition: Here are a bunch of things I've learned.

Item: This edition will be much more cinematically appropriate! Last edition, weaklings like guard or nids or Orks wanted to hide in cover because 4+ cover saves (and 3+ GtG saves, or even better with the right warlord trait) were serious upgrades. No longer. But marines (and often other heavy infantry like Tau suits or striking scorpions) will now double their survivability by being in cover.

Item: A year or two ago, Fritz was talking about how while playing All Quiet on the Martian Front, he used a single annoying long ranged weapon to get his opponent to advance out of cover. Meet the 8th edition lascannon on the guard infantry squad.*

Item: Considering how many lascannons it now takes to take out a vehicle, the ability to tie up a non-flying vehicle and prevent it from shooting** by assaulting is a big deal.

Item: Predators with 4 lascannons vs. 2 Razorbacks with twin lascannons each: I'd rather pay 29 more points for 9 more wounds, transport capacity, and the tactical flexibility of two separate units. Why does the same chassis (OK, 1 more wound) cost about 35 points more without transport capacity?

Item: If your weapon barely misses a crucial cutoff, then the target probably isn't your weapon's intended target. What's a crucial cutoff? Any situation where if you had 1 strength or AP or ballistic skill more, your efficiency would improve from a 1/6 chance to a 1/3 chance, or to some extent from a 1/3 chance to a 1/2 chance. This is what makes Ravenwing Darkshrouds so good against armies without BS 3+.

Related item: As a player, you want to make your opponent miss their crucial cutoffs. You have several opportunities:
  • Hitting. If your opponent has an army with poor ballistic skill, like Orks or non-scion guard, something like a flyer or Dark Angels Darkshroud can manufacture a key cutoff out of hitting.***
  • Wounding. Vehicles survive by making everything do poorly here. Just make sure that whenever possible you're barely over the key cutoffs, or at least not just under them. Don't fire bolters at land raiders; they'll be no more effective than lasguns. Autocannons are meant to shoot at multi-wound foes with T5-6, like Tyranid big bugs or land speeders or bikes or militarum tauroxes & sentinels. (Someone must have thought the meta would be bike-heavy when they points-costed the autocannon.)
  • Saves. Marines in this edition will get a lot of extra mileage by sitting in cover, making most light arms fire bounce off. Vehicles somewhat less so, since the weapons fired at them will most likely not be small arms.
  • Damage. Get your opponent to waste lascannons against 1-wound models, or shoot light arms fire against 2-wound models (like terminators or primaris psykers). Sniper rifles are generally going to be wasted against characters because just when you think you have them killed, they'll hop out of line of sight and keep buffing their neighbors.
Each defensive cutoff you can take advantage of increases the survivability of your unit exponentially. Imagine a Ravenwing Nightshroud in cover against conscript spam: 216 shots needed to take off one wound. Maybe negated by 1 command point.

Item: One major idea in Warhammer is target priority. A lot of wins and losses can be explained thusly: One player attacked the right targets, the other player didn't. In this new edition we have to figure out what works where all over again.

So after some mathhammer and seeing some examples in the field, here's some conclusions for ya:

Lasguns are for targeting light infantry. Anything with T5 or T8 is also a valid target, because your opponent is paying premium points for no benefit there. If you're facing 2+ saves, expect to do only cosmetic damage. You should probably advance, instead!
Boltguns: Similar to lasguns, but can also strip a wound off a vehicle every 13.5 marine shots.
Heavy bolters: Half-decent against everything, but optimally cost effective against marines in cover at long range.
Plasma: is great against heavy infantry, and if you have some way to reroll ones to hit, good when supercharged against tanks, too. (Better than melta at ranges 6"-24")
Mortal wounds are good for hitting tanks and heavy infantry, especially those with invulnerable saves (I'm looking at you, terminators!).
The scatter laser just got nerfed.****

This is why bypassing the marine 3+ save (or 2+ in cover) is a big deal. The best anti-marine weapon is plasma, or whatever has good AP but mediocre strength in your codex.


* I was plinking away at an imperial knight who was sitting behind other units for fear of my scions. My lascannon hit him and did a bit of damage. He returned fire, killing 6 guardsmen. My nearby commissar BLAMed a 7th guardsman, leaving the lascannon and one plasma gunner. The lascannon hit and damaged him AGAIN. He couldn't take it anymore and brought the knight out, using his own deep strike forces as a screen. Yes, I couldn't get to the knight himself, but I didn't have to worry about any more enemy deep strikers, and brought my own scions in to destroy his screen. The knight survived, but his trump card was spent.

**If an opponent's non-flying tank can be surrounded by models in an assault then it can't move free. This is especially useful for horde armies that can fall back and still act at will (Guard with orders and tyranids with one psychic power, and to a much lesser extent harlequins).

*** I've done the math on a decked-out Shadowsword shooting at a nightshroud: Its main volcano cannon, four lascannons, and 8 heavy bolters together will leave the nightshroud unscathed 8% of the time and alive about 43% of the time, even though "on average" it kills the nightshroud. Cue your opponent to start complaining about his dice. End statistics teacher rant.

**** Marines in cover will now last more than twice as long against scatter lasers. Also, vehicles' armor saves and increased wounds make them about 9 times longer lasting against scatter lasers. Scatter lasers are still pretty good against marine bikes, though.

General Discussion / Re: My thoughts on 8th editio
« on: July 10, 2017, 10:35:52 PM »
Assault got less killy, but NOT less important. Tanks can now be denied the ability to shoot next turn by assault. My conscripts have definitely taken advantage of this. Surrounding an opponent's models so that you decide when the assault ends. Firing rapid fire weapons and then charging the near-dead enemy unit just to finish it off.

Assault units got less useful, but as a guard player, I've deliberately started assaults weirdly often in my game today against Tyranids. For example, near the end, 2 infantry squads and a company commander and a sentinel and Yarrick all into 2-wound Swarmlord. Yarrick rolled poorly and only took off one wound, and then my opponent used his last two command points to kill Yarrick out of the normal order, and then the other troops finished Swarmlord off.

Looking at some battles online, units like harlequins that can jump happily into and out of the assault can surround enemy non-flying models with their pile in and consolidate moves so that they can't fall back, making the harlequins potentially unshootable once they're in the assault. I'm imagining a troupe surrounding a rhino.

Rules that let an army play with falling back and still doing stuff (Tyranid psychic power, Guard orders, Harlequins' flip belts and special rules...) are a big deal.

Discussion: THE LIST / Re: 1500 point space marine army
« on: July 04, 2017, 05:52:22 AM »
These days, the a predator has 1 more wound than the razorback, no transport capacity, and different weapon loadout options, but costs 37 points more. So my question is why wouldn't you use the razorback as a main battle tank?

Always before, the weaker armor values meant that the razorback was a fragile platform for the big guns. No more. Give your razorbacks twin lascannons or something. Twin assault cannons also look potentially horrifying.

General Discussion / Re: Braking 8th edition?
« on: July 03, 2017, 12:17:54 PM »
500 conscripts (in 10 blobs of 50) with 4 company commanders and 4 commissars? They won't scratch a wave serpent if what I've heard about them is correct. And it now takes 54 conscript shots to take out one old fashioned marine in cover.

After my first 6 or so games, it seems that scions are what's broken.

Discussion: THE LIST / 1500 Astra Militarum list and battle result
« on: July 03, 2017, 12:03:44 PM »
Over the weekend I played a 1500 point pick up game against a blood angel player. I can't call this a battle report because it wasn't a battle, it was a massacre.

Tempestus command squads are dirt cheap and NASTY. Opponents MUST have an answer. Deep strike generally has gotten way better.

My list:

Company commander x1
{Tempestor prime, command rod} x3

{Infantry squad, sniper, lascannon} x4
{Infantry squad, sniper, missile launcher} x2
Conscripts (41 bodies)
Conscripts (35 bodies)

Commissar with plasma pistol
{Tempestus command squad) x2
{Tempestus command squad, 4 melta guns} x2
{Tempestus command squad, 4 plasma guns} x2
{Astropath} x2
{Command squad, 4 snipers} x2 (Now only one is legal after the FAQ, but I hadn't read it yet.)

Heavy support:
{Heavy weapon squad, 3 heavy bolters} x3

His blood angel list had rhinos, dreadnoughts, and one unit of scouts. I got first turn. I dropped my scions behind his units and to the sides, to force him to split up and back up to go after them, and did rather a lot of damage. At the end of turn 2, he was down to two HQ characters, 2 tactical marines, and a badly damaged rhino, scattered across his side of the table, mostly done killing scions. I had lost most but not all of my scions, one commissar, one astropath, and one conscript blob.

We stopped there, after two turns.

Admittedly, my opponent's list was suboptimal and his deployment wasn't insightful. But beware. The same fate will befall those who don't learn his lesson. Deep striking scions can kill their own value in points when facing vehicles in basically one turn.

Discussion: Astra Militarum / Re: 8th Edition on IG
« on: July 03, 2017, 11:30:48 AM »
Split fire helps mixed-weapon squads, as does being able to pick which models die first. Who does this help? Infantry squads, mostly, which also got a 20% discount.

Deep strike has gotten way better. You never scatter, you never mishap, there are no dangerous terrain tests, and you never have to worry about templates being super effective against you. In all missions except narrative missions you choose which turn units arrive. So we're going to see scions more often.

Our astropaths are cheap and can buff armor. I expect competitive lists will usually include at least one, unless they're maxing out their elite slots.

Since we don't have to worry about templates or maneuvering around terrain to avoid being slowed, conscript blobs will be easier to field without being a pain in the rear to play with or against. I have a battle to report... will do so shortly elsewhere.

Fluff: a lone company of about 100 men advances beyond their lines, drawing in some hostiles... but it's a trap! As the hostiles bear down on the beleaguered company, stormtroopers appear, rising from the ground where they were camouflaged.

Two battalion detachments:

4 HQ total:
Company commander
{Tempestor prime, command rod}

6 Elites total:
{Commissar} x2
{Astropath} x2
Tempestus command squad, 4 meltaguns
Tempestus command squad, 4 plasmaguns

9 Troops total:
{Infantry squad, sniper rifle, lascannon } x4
{Infantry squad, sniper rifle, missile launcher } x2
Conscripts (31 men)
Tempestus scions, 2 plasma guns
Tempestus scions, 2 plasma guns

I faced a Dark Eldar list composed of mainly ravagers and raiders with cabalites, and one squad of scourges. The tempestus scions were very effective, but basically all dead within 2 turns. My opponent got an early advantage on objectives, and I only caught up in the last couple turns. When we called it quits at the end of turn 6, he had only 2 models left: a half dead ravager and his archon. I still had about 60 models left, including 4-5 of the heavy weapons from the infantry squads.

The sniper rifles were useful. A mortal wound from one took the last wound off of a raider sitting in cover. I guess that's what snipers will be useful for: occasional wounds against targets with good armor saves.
My lascannons and missile launchers rolled poorly. My plasma and melta did well, but when they do well for the 4th straight game, it probably isn't luck. Deep striking order givers let me fearlessly supercharge my plasma.
I had one more tempestor prime than I needed. This edition demands more HQ units than I want.

I think deep strike was the most buffed part of the game. I'll bet you all that scions will be all over the place until point values are updated and/or until people learn how to bubble wrap against deep strike in this new edition.
As for the correct mix of conscripts and infantry squads for guard players, I'm still playing around with it. I think there are tactical roles for both.

You gotta use that in the "ambush" narrative mission!!!
Unfortunately for small elite assault armies, nothing gets locked in combat this edition. I agree that there will be many hard counters to this in the competitive scene. Bubble wrap against deep strike is going to be a thing, I think.

General Discussion / My thoughts on 8th editio
« on: June 29, 2017, 12:24:54 PM »
I recorded a video of my thoughts on 8th edition:

All the things we argued about most and wasted the most time on (like templates) are GONE!!!
Deep strike is better, weapon skill, ballistic skill, armor saves, and AP matter more, strength/toughness and range matters less.

General Discussion / Re: Braking 8th edition?
« on: June 28, 2017, 10:15:53 PM »
I feel like all the things that used to create broken combinations have been changed. No more uber-powerful psychic things. No multi-character units. Characters give buffs that don't particularly interact. There will be stronger armies and weaker armies (my guard are pretty strong right now, I think), but nothing truly unbeatable.

I saw a drop pod list at a tournament recently that would ruin this list's day.

A guard horde would probably tar-pit and win on Obsec, but no one plays guard that way that I've ever seen.

A Gladius battle company might be pretty vulnerable to this, especially one based on razorbacks.

My current list? I'd use about 8 psychic shrieks to take out everything but the armor, focus my anti-armor on the mauler fiends first, and then plan on lasting 7 turns while holding objectives.

Discussion: THE LIST / Re: 500pt Space Marine List, I need help.
« on: March 08, 2017, 06:56:24 AM »
At 500 points, I'd do something like this:

Scout squad, land speeder storm
Scout squad, land speeder storm with multimelta
Thunderfire cannon? Devestator squad?

There's a lot of tactical flexibility there. You can keep your scout squads off the board or hiding out for the first few turns, and then zip out and grab objectives at the end. You can blitz turn 1 with a lot of bolter fire. This list does lack a lot of anti-tank, but I figure that's what the stormtalon and land speeder storm are for. Plus, how many tanks do you expect to face at 500 points? They're growing less common as far as I can tell. A thunderfire effectively gives your librarian toughness 7.

Imperial fist tactics may come in handy with all those scout bolters and devestators. White scars can also be hilarious - your opponent finally crosses the board and gets to your thunderfire cannon... only for your 2+ save to hold them off, and then you hit and run out.

I find bolter scouts in storms to be amaaazing. For one armor point, you get a 20% discount on a space marine, plus you get scout and infiltrate. And a vehicle superior to a rhino. Scout snipers underwhelm me. 5 sniper rifles just don't generate that much dakka, and the number of targets that they're optimized against is rather limited.

Battle reports here:

New edition of this list to follow. I enjoy running this, but I'm making some changes. Some to speed up play time (like removing Khan and half the conscripts), some to make it more competitive.

Tau had been the monkey I couldn't get off my back. But with this list, I finally did it.

My list is basically here:
With just a couple changes: Khan was out, a librarian on a bike was in. No attack bike and less conscripts, but two extra squads of inquisitorial henchmen on foot, 1 flamer & 1 meltagun for each squad in a rhino, and add Coteaz and another quad mortar.

Round 1: Bye.

Battle 1 (round 2):
Facing Magnus with heralds, horrors, and tzeenchian flying demons (incl. fateweaver), I got first turn and called down a lot of long range firepower on his heralds and horrors with my wyverns, quad mortars, and some serious additional firepower from my scouts.
Ultimately, my list was overwhelmed by the sheer power of Magnus backed with about 29 psychic dice. He won 10-1, but it would have been 6-5 if I had made a run move on the last turn onto the relic with some obsec folks. Unfamiliarity with Magnus' powers didn't help. He summoned flamers and toasted infantry. He summoned chariots and toasted bikes. I neither rolled well to deny the witch nor did I target the right powers. Also not helping: failing to get any scout units back on the 5+ the castellans detachment grants.


1) Moving to midfield with much of the force. The deployment was hammer and anvil. Had I waited at a distance, my opponent's first turn would have done a lot less damage, and I could have kept pummeling his light forces that provide psychic dice and whatever he was summoning before he could do a lot of damage.
2) Unfamiliarity with Magnus. Wow, a 18 inch D beam... treason...

Battle 2:
Facing a Tau list with 3 regular riptides, 2 different forgeworld riptides, a stormsurge, 4 tetras, and some forgeworld commander.
I got the plus-one to seizing the initiative trait, and for the spare warlord trait from the inquisitorial detachment, I got to infiltrate the inquisitor plus 3 more units. My opponent, accepting that with Coteaz' reroll, I was more likely to seize than not to, let me go first. He deployed 1-2 riptides forward to screen the rest of his forces from my infiltrators. He kept his non-giants off the field to avoid the tons of small arms fire I had available. I infiltrated some of the psychic mini-squads in their rhinos. Turn 1, I killed a riptide and damaged 2 others with a ton of psychic shrieking and a bit of grav and raw firepower.
He played defensively on his turn 1, using a fair bunch of his stims to get 3++ saves.
On my turn 2, another riptide fell. And then around turn 3, tank-shocking made a couple riptides run off the board.
Much of my HQ force made it into the assault with the storm surge (though the blob that got them there had mostly melted away), but broke off using hit and run to take out the enemy commander. This was a mistake. Other forces failed to hold the stormsurge until they could get back, and a failed assault roll meant that his wounded stormsurge and 1 remaining riptide survived, pretty much staying away from my forces in a corner and shooting whatever got close or could be a threat (like Rhinos). He won the primary mission (kill points), I won the maelstrom mission, and then I won on tertiaries. Smarter play could have probably tabled my opponent, but I made a couple of mistakes:

1) I took my assault squad after a small enemy HQ for the tertiary objective of slaying the warlord rather than leaving that to whatever was there to deal with him. This let the stormsurge survive.
2) Much of my first blob got killed because I hadn't internalized the ITC rules for invisibility, and large chunks got smashed by templates.
3) I didn't give my two footslogging henchmen units telepathy, but rather divination. Ditto Coteaz. Big mistake.

Takeaways about my army:
The techmarine didn't bring much to either battle. Time to move hunter's eye to the librarian and find something else to do with the other 85 points.
Scouts can do quite a number on light forces, and getting them to come back in on the outflank (or deepstriking in their land speeders) on a 5+ after being destroyed could have been super awesome for linebreaker, and for continuous damage to an opponent's backfield. Drop the melta squad (useless in both battles) for that.

Takeaways about the meta:
The Magnus list I faced won the tournament. Ynnari made up a third of the tournament's armies. The rest was almost all Tau, space marines, or demons.
I had put meltaguns here and there because I was worried about battle company, but that's obsolete - not one brought battle company. Lots of jetbikes instead.
I enjoy having the ability to generate 2+ rerollable saves in the assault, but most powerful assaulters these days ignore armor saves. Time to drop a ministorum priest.

Is the meta right for a Hereticus inquisitor with a psyocculum and null rod in a horde of conscripts? With the new psyk-out grenades on 25-point inquisitors with extra warlord traits, commmissars are more obsolete than ever.
I finally have that Tau monkey off my back! I've played games against riptide lists where I've failed to remove a single model. The solution is tons of psychic shriek, and getting the first turn. And the inquisitorial representative detachment plus Coteaz really help with that.
I have yet to face Ynnari, but it strikes me that one may want to abandon conventional wisdom when fighting them: Try not to kill any units entirely, whittle them down instead to the point that them getting a spare shooting action won't be a big deal. Another bit of conventional wisdom that may have to be abandoned: Sometimes, you should stop shooting to make sure you get the assaults you want.

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