Author Topic: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte  (Read 9112 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AlmostMercury

  • Brother Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 387
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2014, 05:55:30 PM »
Come to think of it, a malaceptor or even a full brood of zopes can do some serious damage as well.
Wait, what?
What kind of damage could possibly malaceptor do except taking one heavy support slot and one pod in your army?


the malaceptor's psychic power forces a leadership check on 3d6. When used with shadow in the warp this could be a pivotal tool against armies that like to summon daemons and use some type of psychic shenanigans right?

There's no way I would ever call it pivotal. Yes, there's synergy, but think of this way. You'll only hit half the times you successfully cast it, and you can never have a 100% cast percentage (to even come close you need to dump all of your dice into one attempt). This means, your success rate will always be below 50%, usually in the 35-25% range. This all happens BEFORE the leadership test is ever taken, then of course d3 wounds.

Offline Rezial

  • Brother Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 448
  • Dominus Mutationis
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2014, 03:28:19 AM »
Well, without getting too technical I think the Maleceptor being ML2 is better and I also think its unique power has potential to really screw up the opponents.  In an alpha strike scenario I can see it being particularly useful.  So, like the Tervigon it gives synapse and is just as tough, however the 5+ invul is still better than no invul so I won't just dismiss it.  Btw, how many models in the Tyranid army even have an invul capable of stopping ranged and CC?  Not many.  So he's STR6, T6, 5 wounds, all good.  Not special for a Tyranid MC perhaps but that's not the same as being bad.  At least this MC has the chance to survive power swords. 

I think that Psychic Overload looks interesting.  It's certainly not clear how powerful it potentially is without solid playtesting.  It's fine to crunch the numbers but a lot of factors often come together which aren't reflected by just numbers.  For that reason I'm optimistic about it at least.  So yeah I can safely say I might choose the Maleceptor over the Tervigon or Zoanthropes.  Let's not forget it comes from the Heavy slot so I can choose to run an alternate force org whenever and it won't effect HQ, Troops, or Elites.  I can definitely see swapping out one of my other Heavy's to give this one its fair time.  I mean, it's tough Synapse and it causes Shadows and looks pretty dang good. It spits out 3 D3 psychic attacks that ignore armor and cover and glances vehicle armor too.  Those attacks hit separate targets too.  I can think of so many situations in a game that it just might be a deciding factor.  So really the only major negatives I see with the model is it's points cost and the fact that it doesn't scream auto-include me!  I do wish that both of the new models had some upgrade options as well, but at least no upgrades is simple.  No I don't think it's a bad choice at all.
Repent, for tomorrow you die.
http://rezial.blogspot.com/

Offline PDzikus

  • Battle Brother
  • *
  • Posts: 248
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2014, 04:47:18 AM »
I'm sorry for a long rant and not entirely on topic, by Maleceptor is getting on my nerve whenever anyone claims "It can be useful". Yea... I guess Pyrovore can have some use too, same as Skyslashers and Tervigon Prime. It's just they are really the worse units in our army to fulfill their roles.

First of all - Maleceptor's power has not much of a benefit from Shadow in the Warp rule. If SitW rule is used, this means you are shooting a psionic unit. Which means they will have it at least twice as easy to deny you this power. Shooting psionics with psi attacks is really a poor idea in my experience. Of course if you manage to manifest your power after all, it is helpful. But SitW is only 12'' and Psychic Overload is 24'' so they will not overlap that often I guess.

Also I say 3 Zaonthropes beat Maleceptor almost any day - unless there's some very strange and very specific scenario.
Synapse - check, Shadow in the Warp - check. ML2 + 1 extra power - check.
Defensive power - 2 wounds and 3++ save is as good as Maleceptor's 4+/5++. Even if you take a look at S8 shots, Zoanthropes require 9 hits to be taken out - the same as Maleceptor. On the opposite side, Maleceptor is more survivable against bolter fire, but anything stronger then that and he falls quicker then Zoans.

On offensive side, first of all you have to think about number of charges you have to spend during your psi phase. Most of the time you will probably have around 6-8 ML + around 4 from roll. So altogether in a psi army you'll have maximum 14-15 charges to spend (probably 10-12 much more often) and you will have around 4-5 casters. There's a chance you will have some useful buffing powers, which you will use for your army - Catalyst and Onslaught. So let say you use only 5 of those dice and you are left with 10 dice. You probably will use around 5 dice for WC2 power and 2-3 dice per WC 1 power - like 1 mind blast and 2 Horror/Pyroxism. Or you can shoot twice from Maleceptor. So there is no chance you will use all your dice to shoot 3 times with Maleceptor - you of course can use less dice but then your chances drop significantly.

And then there is this whole casting procedure: throw dice, try to hit. With Zoans, you have either 3 lances or 3 blasts, out of which 2 should hit - all of this for a cost of 5 warp charges. With Maleceptor you have 2 shots (at 2 different unit) with 50% chance to hit anyone. So there is a good chance you will hit one unit with an attack that still requires to beat their leadership for a cost of 10 Warp Charges. If that is not bad, I don't know what is.
With Zoans, I have a good chance to strip at least 1 HP even against skimmers, and with 66% chance I will penetrate and possibly even explode it. With Maleceptor all i can hope for is 1 glance hit with 50% chance to beat leadership 10.
Against infantry Maleceptor will cause d3 wounds at most.
Against infantry Zoans will drop 3 big pie plates with S6 and AP3, which could possibly remove whole unit of space marines at once (only cover save can help them, which mostly will be just 5+)

And to add insult to injury, Maleceptor itself costs 205 points, 3 Zoanthropes cost 150 and you can add a pod for on-target delivery for 75 points for a total cost of 225 points. I have no idea how anyone can say Maleceptor is a good choice for our army.

But of course I'll be interested in reading some real battle reports with Maleceptor being the star on the board.

And last one thing on topic of Maleceptor - this monster needs really just one thing to be fixed - Psychic Overload should be WC1 power and not WC2. This way it could be easily manifest it 2-3 times per round, would much more likely hit precisely what we want to hit and wouldn't feel so big a waste if we can't hit/got denied. WC2 is just too expensive for such a power. Or maybe it could just generate all 3 hits at one cast?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 11:13:34 AM by PDzikus »

Offline AlmostMercury

  • Brother Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 387
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2014, 09:45:44 AM »
The Maleceptor is an Elite unit, but yes, less valuable than an HQ.

I would totally run Pyrovores in a Tyrannocyte now, for the record.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 09:49:11 AM by AlmostMercury »

Offline AlmostMercury

  • Brother Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 387
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2014, 10:20:28 AM »
Before I post this, I recognize that there are many many, infinite even, situations where the math is not be all end all. That being said, you still have to respect probability of success. I'm not saying don't buy one (I may even, just for the sake of having one), I'm saying it's benefits do not outweigh it's drawbacks. There is a great opportunity cost in taking this model. So long as you're aware this is the case, play it all you want.

The Maleceptor is an Elite unit, but yes, less valuable than an HQ. As far as dishing out 3 d3 Psychic Attacks, lets not forget how many WC that costs. If you put 5WC into the power you're sitting at around 25-30% chance, depending on the leadership of the target. You can probably push 35% if you're trying to snipe low leadership special weapons infantry.

So that means you'll spend 15 WC (or more) to cast it 3 times each round. If you spend 16 WC on L1 buffing powers, you average 6 successful buffs.

I made this table and posted over on the Hive. It's a durability comparison of relevant models that lists average shots needed to kill X:

                                 S4  S5  S6  S7  S8
3 Zoanthropes (3++)  36  28  22  22  11
Maleceptor (5++)       46  23  15  12  09
Maleceptor (4+)         60  30  20  15  12
Tervigon (3+)           110  55  36  28  22
Terv (no save)            36  18  12  09  07

So, now I'm going to make a table for the effectiveness of Psychic Overload.

@PDzikus: I would totally run Pyrovores in a Tyrannocyte now... officially... for the record.

Offline AlmostMercury

  • Brother Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 387
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2014, 11:44:53 AM »
Here you go. The chances of a single success upon number of casts against various leadership values.

Keep in mind to get 2d3 or more wounds, your chances get abysmally small.

Chance for d3 Wounds (1 Cast)
          Ld10   Ld9    Ld8     Ld7   Ld6
WC3   13%   16%   18%   20%   21%
WC4   17%   21%   25%   27%   29%
WC5   20%   25%   29%   32%   34%
WC6   22%   28%   32%   35%   37%

Chance for d3 Wounds (2 Casts)
          Ld10    Ld9    Ld8    Ld7    Ld6
WC3   24%   29%   33%   36%   38%
WC4   31%   38%   44%   47%   50%
WC5   36%   44%   50%   54%   56%
WC6   39%   48%   54%   58%   60%

Chance for d3 Wounds (3 Casts)
          Ld10   Ld9    Ld8     Ld7    Ld6
WC3   34%   40%   45%   49%   51%
WC4   43%   51%   58%   61%   64%
WC5   49%   58%   64%   69%   71%
WC6   53%   63%   69%   73%   75%

Offline FalleN

  • Chapter Master
  • *
  • Posts: 533
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2014, 02:06:53 PM »
More new nid kits. Plastic Venomthropes/zoanthropes and Neurothrope.
"Our time will come again, Eldrad has promised us. Once more you upstart Mon-keigh[spits] shall kneel before our power! This time we will not be so lenient!"

Offline AlmostMercury

  • Brother Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 387
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2014, 02:59:50 PM »
Those venomthropes look awesome.

Offline Dirty Harry

  • Marshal of the Phoenician Crusade
  • Supporter
  • Regent Of Terra
  • *
  • Posts: 2031
  • I'lll abhor the $#!7 out of that witch!
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2014, 03:27:56 PM »
That's my reaction pretty much.
Don't try making a unit unkillable. its a waste of time and the dice gods laugh at you for wasting your time. Dedicate a unit to a job and make sure it does it til it's either dead or running.

Offline AlmostMercury

  • Brother Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 387
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2014, 03:29:08 PM »
SHUT UP HARRY!! =)

Offline Kezef

  • Chapter Master
  • *
  • Posts: 589
  • Angels have two wings for a reason
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2014, 03:41:20 PM »
Neurothropes? are GW just redoing the entire range, they may as well just re-release a tyranid codex

Offline Dirty Harry

  • Marshal of the Phoenician Crusade
  • Supporter
  • Regent Of Terra
  • *
  • Posts: 2031
  • I'lll abhor the $#!7 out of that witch!
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2014, 06:25:49 PM »
They're probably going to publish a full Tyranid 6.5 expansion with all the rules in it via digital. So many models. My bank account failed its feel no pain roll.
Don't try making a unit unkillable. its a waste of time and the dice gods laugh at you for wasting your time. Dedicate a unit to a job and make sure it does it til it's either dead or running.

Offline Kezef

  • Chapter Master
  • *
  • Posts: 589
  • Angels have two wings for a reason
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2014, 06:50:30 PM »
rofl just rofl

Offline Rezial

  • Brother Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 448
  • Dominus Mutationis
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2014, 09:31:12 PM »
Yeah, I mixed up the force org slots between the Maleceptor and Toxicrene.

Well, I just don't agree with the negative assessment without a few weeks of play at least.  If it doesn't blow you away on paper, that doesn't really mean that much because you can't predict when or where it would actually save your butt, or for that matter when you will roll above or below probability.  I'm not overly impressed with probability statistics for this reason.  Personally though I can't compare this seriously to the Tervigon anyway.  It wouldn't compete with a Tervigon in my army.  It's Psychically superior to the Tervigon and I'll never use my Tervigons as HQ anyway unless I'm in a tiny game.  The Zoanthropes yes, but it trumps them in toughness, along with having all the MC special rules. 

In reality it is noticeably tougher than the Zoanthropes because it can't be insta-killed by anything without Instant Death, is harder to wound in the first place, and is actually not only better against bolters, but anything with low or no AP.  There are a great number of attacks that have medium to good strength that don't have strong AP.    Actually both the Zoanthropes and the Maleceptor are better against Grav weaponry than many options.  The Maleceptor is an MC though and so you're getting an MC that is less weak to Grav.  This is because Grav is High AP but only wounds on the number of the target's Armor Save.  So it only wounds the Maleceptor on 4's instead of 3's like most MC's.  However it at least gets and Invul.

The witchfire power Psychic Overload is able to hit 3 separate targets where the Zoey's brotherhood attack cannot.  Overload is also stronger than Warp Blast, STR 5 AP3, because it simply wounds if you fail leadership on 3d6.  If you're a Psyker of any type as well then Shadows does come into play.  The range difference between the attack and Shadows isn't a big deal to me because I'd likely be more focused on it using an Alpha Strike tactic where I've already used a Spore Pod to deploy right next to an enemy Psyker.  It's very easy enough to fail leadership on 3d6 in any case, why do you think so many people hate Mind Shackle Scarabs?  The power's wording might need a little playing with.  You might be able to argue that each model hit with it takes D3 hits, and not units, but I'd need to really look at that.  Warp Blast and Lance aren't as strong as this power and they're just as easy to fail.  Remember you have to deal with the Brotherhood rules which only give you one chance to pass or fail even if you have all three Psykers.  You also don't benefit from the extra models in your Psychic pool.  Overload is legal to attempt 3 times per turn which is rare for any power.  Rest assured I won't be rolling psychic dice like mad, but using them carefully and when it matters.  For all the other moments this model is a better Synapse anchor than Zoanthropes easily and it's far better in any CC scenario if you must fight.  My opinion is that Harry summed up the proper word for the Maleceptor in the Chat earlier today.  Synergy.  This model will come into its own when properly used with other models, not solo.  In fact no Tyranid model holds up to scrutiny by itself so again I have to disagree.  I look at this MC and see a potential opportunity.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 10:02:38 PM by Rezial »
Repent, for tomorrow you die.
http://rezial.blogspot.com/

Offline hawkhaven667

  • Chapter Master
  • *
  • Posts: 698
    • View Profile
Re: New Spore pod Tyrannocyte
« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2014, 11:53:31 PM »
Yeah, I mixed up the force org slots between the Maleceptor and Toxicrene.

Well, I just don't agree with the negative assessment without a few weeks of play at least.  If it doesn't blow you away on paper, that doesn't really mean that much because you can't predict when or where it would actually save your butt, or for that matter when you will roll above or below probability.  I'm not overly impressed with probability statistics for this reason.  Personally though I can't compare this seriously to the Tervigon anyway.  It wouldn't compete with a Tervigon in my army.  It's Psychically superior to the Tervigon and I'll never use my Tervigons as HQ anyway unless I'm in a tiny game.  The Zoanthropes yes, but it trumps them in toughness, along with having all the MC special rules. 

In reality it is noticeably tougher than the Zoanthropes because it can't be insta-killed by anything without Instant Death, is harder to wound in the first place, and is actually not only better against bolters, but anything with low or no AP.  There are a great number of attacks that have medium to good strength that don't have strong AP.    Actually both the Zoanthropes and the Maleceptor are better against Grav weaponry than many options.  The Maleceptor is an MC though and so you're getting an MC that is less weak to Grav.  This is because Grav is High AP but only wounds on the number of the target's Armor Save.  So it only wounds the Maleceptor on 4's instead of 3's like most MC's.  However it at least gets and Invul.

The witchfire power Psychic Overload is able to hit 3 separate targets where the Zoey's brotherhood attack cannot.  Overload is also stronger than Warp Blast, STR 5 AP3, because it simply wounds if you fail leadership on 3d6.  If you're a Psyker of any type as well then Shadows does come into play.  The range difference between the attack and Shadows isn't a big deal to me because I'd likely be more focused on it using an Alpha Strike tactic where I've already used a Spore Pod to deploy right next to an enemy Psyker.  It's very easy enough to fail leadership on 3d6 in any case, why do you think so many people hate Mind Shackle Scarabs?  The power's wording might need a little playing with.  You might be able to argue that each model hit with it takes D3 hits, and not units, but I'd need to really look at that.  Warp Blast and Lance aren't as strong as this power and they're just as easy to fail.  Remember you have to deal with the Brotherhood rules which only give you one chance to pass or fail even if you have all three Psykers.  You also don't benefit from the extra models in your Psychic pool.  Overload is legal to attempt 3 times per turn which is rare for any power.  Rest assured I won't be rolling psychic dice like mad, but using them carefully and when it matters.  For all the other moments this model is a better Synapse anchor than Zoanthropes easily and it's far better in any CC scenario if you must fight.  My opinion is that Harry summed up the proper word for the Maleceptor in the Chat earlier today.  Synergy.  This model will come into its own when properly used with other models, not solo.  In fact no Tyranid model holds up to scrutiny by itself so again I have to disagree.  I look at this MC and see a potential opportunity.
This soooo much this +1