Author Topic: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here  (Read 6375 times)

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Offline Odras

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2017, 05:56:17 PM »
Please explain why you think that.

One of the things I was most excited for this edition was the fact that it was so thoroughly play tested.  However, the more that I compare points I am finding odd discrepancies with even the internal balance of this codex.  A Wave Serpent with twin bright lance is 147 pts and a falcon with a pulse laser is 174 points no other upgrades added on.  The pulse laser has better range but worse AP and on average does 1 point less of damage compared to twin bright lances.  Yet the Wave Serpent has the serpent shield, double the transport capacity and an extra wound.  Why would the Falcon be almost 30 points more?  At first I thought it must be because of holo fields.  Nope! Holo fields don't appear to exist anymore.

Guardians are 8 points and Dire Avengers are 17 points.  More than double the points for 1 better armor save and a little extra range? 

I haven't checked it myself but I read that a similarly kitted out Wraith Knight costs 80 points more than an Imperial Knight.

On the brighter side, Rangers look interesting now and Banshees seem pretty good.

I agree, there seems to be a lot of points discrepancies. The more I think about it the more I am worried about the heavy weapons change too, it seems to have made stronger armies that couldn't previously move and shoot but it has nerfed armies like Eldar who could previously move and shoot heavy weapons but now have to do so with -1 to hit.

Wraithknights have had all their advantages over imperial knights taken away, fnp and toughness instead of armour and now they seem to cost a fair amount more. I would argue that the wraithknight has better weapon options, ghostglaive is better than both the knight options but the points increase seems to be too high in my opinion.

Dire avenger points cost is crazy high, as you said you can get 20 guardians and heavy weapon platforms for the same cost as a 10 man dire avenger squad and exarch. No real reason for this.

Jetbikes are now fast attack, giving us very limited troops choices. It seems we only really have rangers or guardians now since dire avenger seem way over priced.

As far as our heavy weapons go, star cannons look awesome but are 30 points each which seems quite high. I'm  still not sure about eldar missile launchers, they are cheaper than star cannons at 25 points but I still don't like them at first look.

My biggest concern now is that eldar mobility has gone, and the only way to play now is footdar. I'm not really bothered by changing what is good, but I has such high hopes for there being multiple options for what is good.

Offline EBomb

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2017, 09:22:51 PM »
I think you may be right about Dire Avengers points being an error.  Their Power level doesn't mesh with their points cost.  Something that I've noticed is that if you take the power level X 20 you get a ballpark number for the points cost of a unit.  It is generally a little higher than the base loadout but less than if all the most expensive options are taken.  Dire Avengers are listed as power level 3 for 5 so about 60 points or 12 per model.  However according to the 17 points per model 5 base avengers are 85 points, if you take the Exarch with shimmer shield and glaive add 24 more points to that.  That seems off by quite a bit and 12 points per model seems about right to me.

Offline Angelic

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2017, 11:00:05 PM »
I've been reading a few things similar to this and the idea was floated that the cost may be due to the opportunities for synergy. Of course some people believe that a models points cost ought to be assessed in a vacuum but, for example, Dire Avengers can grab a +4 Invulnerable save if you're running Asurmen. The difference between DAs and Guardians IS there, 5+ hitting for overwatch (regardless of other modifiers which we've been seeing a lot of), extra 6" shooting range. Does that account for the total difference? I have no idea...

Obviously some people think that paying for synergy opportunity is rubbish. But who knows what's justifying the extra cost? Maybe you're paying for keywords, maybe Aspect Warrior or Dire Avengers will throw out some wonderful bonuses later down the track? Sure that may be annoying for now, sure waiting for the 'dex to drop will be a pain, but it would be more of a pain to swap EVERYTHING over, rather than simply planning for the later releases..

Either way, I don't see any issue with being cautious, but we still don't have a full picture of what we have, I'd wait until then, and maybe even until the 'dexes, to make any final judgments.
The Dance Without End Begins..

Offline mcphro

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2017, 05:36:11 AM »
Ok ive seen some of the ynnari stuff.... and...

1. They made str from death stronger. You can now do upto 5 actions when a unit dies.
Move...shoot...charge...cast psychic power...or fight.

2. Yneeds will - specifically, any eldar model can start in any transport with the ynnari faction. E.g. banshees could now start in raiders etc

Offline mcphro

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2017, 06:28:14 AM »
All harlequins have charge even if they advanced or fell back

Offline DuckWake

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2017, 06:37:01 AM »
2. Yneeds will - specifically, any eldar model can start in any transport with the ynnari faction. E.g. banshees could now start in raiders etc

Ynneads Will ability has only been added to 'Yvraine' and 'The Visarch'. It doesn't look like there is anything that confers that ability on the other Aeldari units.

Offline DuckWake

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2017, 07:41:34 AM »
Just sharing a bit of a rant here about my beloved guardians.

I haven't played 40K since 3rd edition, which must have been 17 or 18 years ago now. And I was pretty miffed back then about lack of flexibility in the Eldar troop choices when their codex first dropped.

I was quite looking forward to trying some 40k again with 8th edition, but I must admit that I've developed a bit of irrational anger after reading through the Eldar leaks to see that after 18 years the Eldar still only have a few very narrow roles in mind for each of their troop choices.

Close combat Guardian squads with 2 special weapons make sense, as too, would shuriken catapult armed Guardian squads with 2 special weapons. Storm Guardians should have the option of swapping out all their close combat weapons for shuriken catapults. There isn't much reason not to pair off fusion guns or flamers with shuriken catapults, it just seems like an obvious match.

Shuriken catapult armed guardians being paired off with less mobile long range heavy weapons platforms don't make much sense, but it works in certain situations. However if I was in charge of force organization and procurement of a craft world that had access to a sizeable and very highly trained militia, I'd make damn sure they had access to the tools that allow them to perform all roles they may find themselves in effectively.

Guardian defender squads should have the option to swap out all their shuriken catapults for a 24" rapid fire 1 weapon to allow them to better complement their heavy weapon platform. Some sort of dart/bolt catapult, or splinter rifle, or guardian blaster. It doesn't matter how its made there are roles where they could benefit from it.

I'd very much like to have a nice solid guardian heavy footdar army, but at the moment their troop choices which I would have assumed are supposed to be flexible, are too focused on a few narrow roles, yet also don't seem fully optimized for those roles.

I can only hope that the next Craftworld codex revisits the troops section, but since it hasn't had any organizational changes in 18 years, I'm really bumming myself out over the likelyhood of Guardians squads never making any sense.

Offline DCannon4Life

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2017, 09:55:07 AM »
Regarding (all) Indexes: Might be helpful to keep in mind that these are transitional documents. Drawing hard conclusions (or making harsh criticisms) based on them may not be the best use of your time.
First, you must learn Balance. --Miyagi

Offline mcphro

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2017, 05:07:38 PM »
Regarding (all) Indexes: Might be helpful to keep in mind that these are transitional documents. Drawing hard conclusions (or making harsh criticisms) based on them may not be the best use of your time.


True. But they arnt going to bring all thoae new codexes in in 3 months. They will be around  for a whike yet.

Offline DCannon4Life

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2017, 05:23:54 PM »
Regarding (all) Indexes: Might be helpful to keep in mind that these are transitional documents. Drawing hard conclusions (or making harsh criticisms) based on them may not be the best use of your time.


True. But they arnt going to bring all thoae new codexes in in 3 months. They will be around  for a whike yet.
GW has indicated their timeline for releasing the codex for every army; it's short, given the number of armies.
First, you must learn Balance. --Miyagi

Offline smook

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2017, 07:19:36 PM »
Regarding Guardians and HWP do you guys agree that Shuriken Cannons might be the best way to go now? They're cheap obviously (5pts) and it seems strange to sacrifice the ability to move, advance and shoot with no -1 to hit penalty to get a better weapon that can't be used if you advance and has the -1 to hit for moving.

Admittedly, Starcannons look absolutely godly, H2 S6 -3AP 3D, but that's kind of the problem I'm having right now - I can't see the best platforms to put heavy weapons on given you sacrifice Battle Focus and take the -1 on moving in an army that generally has good mobility.

I'm thinking Shuriken Cannons are the way to go for Jetbikes as well, for 15pts you get +1 shot and 12" range but you lose the ability to advance and shoot and have -1 when you move, doesn't seem worth it at all.

Offline Angelic

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2017, 07:47:22 PM »
I think that, like always, it depends on the rest of your list. In my mind Heavy Weapon Platforms were always there to supplement a minor hole that I had. So, if I wasn't running Fire Prisms or Fire Dragons for AV/Anti-Monster, for some ungodly reason, I would sprinkle Bright Lances into my Guardian Squads to help fill that hole. If you're list is already AV/Anti-Monster Heavy, sure Shuriken Cannons are a great idea, if not Starcannons or Bright Lances might be the way to go.

The question is, how mobile are your Guardians really going to be? I think a lot of list choices in Eldar really come from play style and the synergies you're trying to bring out. If they're meant to be static objective sitters, given their 12" range, maybe a Starcannon, EML, or Bright Lance would be less of an issue. If you're advancing them to mid-field you're almost always going to want a Shuriken Cannon because there is no point in wasting shots on any given turn.

But.. this is just me I suppose.
The Dance Without End Begins..

Offline Odras

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2017, 12:37:21 AM »
I think that, like always, it depends on the rest of your list.

To me that is the new thing that people need to get their head around in 8th edition. It appears to me that there are no longer answers that apply to everyone. The answer in 7th was 99% of the time clear and for all situations, whether it was a scatter laser on a jetbike, or more warp spiders

I'm thinking Shuriken Cannons are the way to go for Jetbikes as well, for 15pts you get +1 shot and 12" range but you lose the ability to advance and shoot and have -1 when you move, doesn't seem worth it at all.

I'm not really sure what weapons you are comparing here but here are my thoughts on Windrider weapons.

Twin Shuriken Catapult: 10 points. Basically should never be used, as you can get the far superior Shuriken Cannon for only 2 points more. Yes you lose 1 shot, but you gain 2 strength and 12" range. Since we no longer have JSJ abilities, 12" gets us too close to assault for squishy jetbikes, and against most targets the extra strength means more total wounding shots. 

Scatter Laser vs Shuriken Cannon: If you are moving both of these weapons will average 2 hits per turn of shooting. Scatter laser hitting 50% (4+) of the time with 4 shots and shuriken cannon hitting 66% (3+) of the time. It then comes down the the flexibility and points difference.
Scatter Laser: Has the option to sit still and average slightly more hits, has 12" extra range. 15 points.
Shuriken Cannon: Has rending on a 6 to wound, gives 6" more mobility by being allowed to advance. 12 points.

To me there is no clear answer there and it will very depending on the rest of your army. People seem to be writing off the scatter laser very quickly (as I did when I first saw it), but there are definitely advantages to it. To me 12" extra range is a big help and does a lot for improving survivability.

Admittedly, Starcannons look absolutely godly, H2 S6 -3AP 3D, but that's kind of the problem I'm having right now - I can't see the best platforms to put heavy weapons on given you sacrifice Battle Focus and take the -1 on moving in an army that generally has good mobility.

I thought the same thing initially when I first saw the star cannon, they look great. However on further investigation and testing in a couple of games, they seem to have the same problems they have had in the last couple of editions. They are too expensive and only have a small number of ideal targets.

They are not the best weapons for targeting most vehicles and monsters due to being strength 6, so wounding high toughness targets on a 5+ and only having 2 shots. They are over kill with their three damage on general infantry, their only ideal target is elite infantry and when it comes to them, they are still very expensive. You can get two scatter lasers or 2.5 shuriken cannons for the same price.

Offline Shadenuat

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2017, 08:22:42 PM »
>> They are too expensive and only have a small number of ideal targets.
Centurions
Spehhs wolves
Paladins
Nobs
Obliterators
Warlocks
Tau suits
Venoms and Raiders
Wraiths and destroyers

Mixing them with other weapons wouldn't be too unreasonable: StC+SL on War Walkers, move '10 before game thus keeping your BS3+ and then sit still.
Vypers with Guide are interesting choice.
Crimson Hunter just shoots those at full BS, although arguably I'd keep the Lances there for crippling enemy vehicles into lower BS together with Pulse laser.

Offline Odras

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Re: Eldar Leaks 8th Ed - moved to here
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2017, 02:50:51 AM »
>> They are too expensive and only have a small number of ideal targets.

I thought I would do some maths to check out my initial assumption of star cannons still being too expensive.

Method
So rather than reinventing the wheel my starting point was the spreadsheet on Eldar Weapons by Neil Phillips that I found over on 3++ is the new black forums/articles. This spreadsheet calculates the number of wounds caused by firing each weapon once against a large number of potential targets. This is great work done by him, but to me doesn't help me much with my decisions as to what to take in the game as it does not account for the points difference between the different weapons. Fortunately it is easy to convert his numbers to points spent per wound inflicted against various targets to give us numbers similar to the analysis that The Mattler has done for previous editions.


Limitations
Please read The Mattler's comments on the value of these averaged numbers. (See Eldar insights article)

Additionally Neil_Phillips spreadsheet is very comprehensive and covers a lot of situations, I did not have the time to check it for accuracy, so if you do see anything that is off please let me know. Although it has been published and used quite a bit on other forums so I assumed that it was pretty accurate. Search for him on the 3++ website to find a link to his spreadsheet, it is quite a useful tool.

This brief analysis does not take into account the platform that the weapon is on, which will make a difference to the points efficiencies of the different weapons. I do intend to do a similar analysis of the different platforms for these weapons, but that will take a little more time and I will probably make a new thread for. For example, a brightlance might cost 20 points per wound on target X while a shuriken cannon costs 18. Directly looking at the points the shuriken cannon is better, but this does not take into account that this requires 1.5 weapon points for the shuriken cannon and only 1 weapon point for the brightlance, meaning that once you take into account the cost of the platform, the brightlance will probably win.

Results
I can't format the table here, and I don't know how to add an image directly to the post so here are the results. If someone can tell me how to include an image here I will add it in. Thanks  :)
http://imgur.com/a/oX9Nj

Comments
This shows that while there is no one weapon to kill everything like there was with the scatter laser last edition, a combination of brightlances and shuriken cannons seem to be the way to go. (Edit after looking at the numbers more) Scatter lasers come close to shuriken cannons when stationary and maybe their longer range could per argued for but when moving the shuriken cannon is far better.

Missile launchers much like last edition are still not good.

As I initially suspected, starcannons have a very small number of targets that they excel against, particularly T5 multiwound characters. The issue with this is that these characters are not able to be targeted unless they are the closest target. One place where the star cannons might be worth it would be on a assassin wave serpent, taking crystal targetting matrix and attempting to use the large movement of the wave serpent to get into a position where you are closest to the characters with a twin star cannon.

As above, this completely ignores the platform on which these are mounted, but I think it is a good starting point for looking at the weapons to take this edition. I think creating a take all comers list for eldar this edition is not quite as simple as it was in the past, which to me is a good thing.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 02:57:41 AM by Odras »