Author Topic: Points cost for unit abilities  (Read 2993 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Odras

  • Battle Brother
  • *
  • Posts: 80
    • View Profile
Points cost for unit abilities
« on: July 23, 2017, 08:00:20 PM »
Hi all, I am wanting some further opinion on this as it has divided my usual play group and I have found conflicting opinions else where on the internet.

Do you pay points cost for a units abilities? Things that are listed not in the wargear section of the profile but under the abilities section.

The units this applies to from Eldar are the Hemlock and the Autach. These have Spiritstones, and a forceshield listed in their respective abilities.

The people that have argued for having to pay for them have simply stated that since there are costs for them in the index you have to pay for them. My counter argument is that both of those items are optional pieces of wargear that can be taken on other units and the costs are there to cover those units. Additionally the index states "Points per model (Does not include wargear), which to me means that you have to add the cost of anything listed in the wargear section, or the wargear options section.

No where I can see does it indicate that you have to pay for abilities that a unit has. It this is the case, why are some abilities free and others are not simply because they have the same name as a piece of wargear. For example Iron Halo on the space marine captain is an ability that gives a 4++ save, whereas the autach has an forceshield ability that gives it a 4++ save. Why would you have to pay for one but not the other.

Let me know your thoughts, and if I have been blind and simply missed one of the FAQs clarifying this please let me know. Additionally is there any other instances of abilities sharing a name with wargear in other factions?



Offline DCannon4Life

  • Grand Master
  • *
  • Posts: 983
    • View Profile
Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2017, 09:28:19 PM »
While an FaQ may clarify at some point, you are best to assume that the mistake was in putting it in "Abilities" rather than "Wargear" or "Equipment". The Iron Halo is not a piece of gear with a point cost, but Spirit Stones and the Forceshield do have point costs. I recommend you pay the points for the Spirit Stones and the Forceshield.

Cheers!
First, you must learn Balance. --Miyagi

Online Odras

  • Battle Brother
  • *
  • Posts: 80
    • View Profile
Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2017, 01:30:17 AM »
you are best to assume that the mistake was in putting it in "Abilities" rather than "Wargear" or "Equipment".

The Iron Halo is not a piece of gear with a point cost, but Spirit Stones and the Forceshield do have point costs.

I agree that is probably the safest assumption and the one that I have made in my lists for now due to my opponents opinion on it, but what evidence is there to suggest this is the correct assumption? To me it seems equally as likely that the mistake was simply using the same name for 2 different things. Most people who I have talked to that said the same thing you said were basing it off the forceshield and forgetting that wraithblades have an option to use a forceshield.

The iron halo is also not an optional upgrade for any other units in the index.

I don't like the idea of basing things off, "that is clearly a mistake so lets play it this way instead of how it was written". Understandably, the moment a FAQ comes out saying that the forceshield / spiritstones should be under wargear they should be payed for, but based on the rules as they currently are I see no argument for abilities needing to be payed for.

To me making assumptions about what is a mistake and what is not is opening a massive can of worms. Do we say hemlocks no longer auto hit, because quite a few people are convinced that is a mistake? Do we increase the points cost of Bobby G because some people think he has been undercosted? Where does it stop?

Offline Shadenuat

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2017, 01:59:12 AM »
Basically, you can draw upon other indexes to see how it works in them and their FAQ (which means you pay, since marine captain or whatever does, while chaos lord doesn't, so on, so forth); or you decide that you play Eldar by Index Xenos 1, not other books, and don't pay and wait until GW fixes it's own mess.

I go with the second option, which is why I also don't use Fortune to save from mortal wounds for example.

Online Odras

  • Battle Brother
  • *
  • Posts: 80
    • View Profile
Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2017, 02:13:08 AM »
Basically, you can draw upon other indexes to see how it works in them and their FAQ (which means you pay, since marine captain or whatever does, while chaos lord doesn't, so on, so forth)

Do you mind giving some more details of these similar instances from other books? What ability does a marine captain pay for?

I have attempted to go through the other books, but I am the first to admit that with the deluge of new information in 8th I do not have a good understanding of any faction outside of Aeldari.

Offline Shadenuat

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2017, 02:29:20 AM »
Index Imperium 1 faq
Q: Is the cost of the combat shield included in the Company
Champion and Company Champion on Bike’s points?
A: No. This (and all similar ‘other wargear’ found in the
points values section) must be paid for in the same way
as a model’s weapons

Since it's in the section with point values, you pay for it. If it isn't, you don't (which is the case for some upgrade for Chaos lords or whatever). That's basically the gist of it, and fits with Powershield & Spirit Stones.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 02:33:18 AM by Shadenuat »

Online Odras

  • Battle Brother
  • *
  • Posts: 80
    • View Profile
Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 02:47:44 AM »
Thanks for that, I had not managed to find that example. To me that makes it fairly clear that you do need to pay for it, and that it applies for anything that has a points cost.

Offline Shadenuat

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2017, 05:12:14 AM »
I checked through ETC 2017 lists and these upgrades cost points in them too, if that's of any additional help.

Online SilverBlue4521

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2017, 09:40:07 AM »
The forceshield should not count as a wargear for the autarch. Firstly, its not even a wargear option for him as it is not in the wargear option or in the wargear he comes with. Secondly, contrast the ability description -'this model has a 4+ invul'- to the ability description of the wraithblades -'A model equipped with a forceshield has a 4+ invul'-. If we had to pay for the forceshield on the autarch, wouldn't the description be the same? This is also true with the wording of the spirit stones on the Hemlock compared to the wargear option of it that are available for the other vehicles.

Also, if we're going with the Space Marine captain/chaplain wordings, the iron halo/rosarius(which are not wargear options) also has the same wording as the autarch's forceshield, while the stormshield(which is a wargear option) has the same wording as the wraithblade's forceshield except the stormshield has a 3+ invul instead.

Just to be sure, someone should just send an email to GW to clarify this issue.

Online Odras

  • Battle Brother
  • *
  • Posts: 80
    • View Profile
Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2017, 09:21:41 PM »
That is the exact same line of thought I had previously SilverBlue, however if you look at the entry that Shadenuat has posted the Company Champion, in index Imperial 1. It has an ability called combat shield, which also has a price listed of 4 points. The FAQ states:

Q: Is the cost of the combat shield included in the Company
Champion and Company Champion on Bike’s points?

A: No. This (and all similar ‘other wargear’ found in the
points values section) must be paid for in the same way
as a model’s weapons.


To me this indicates that if there is a price for that item you have to pay for it no matter where it is listed. The only possible argument against it I could see is that the combat shield is not an option for any other units that I know of.

I checked through ETC 2017 lists and these upgrades cost points in them too, if that's of any additional help.
Yea I checked through those lists too before posting this, they were one of the ones that did include it but there were also others that did not.

The only problem with issues like this is that it leads to possibly illegal lists in tournaments and gives TOs a lot of work to do to ensure this doesn't happen.

Online The Mattler

  • Brother Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 255
    • View Profile
Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2017, 11:51:35 PM »
I go with the second option, which is why I also don't use Fortune to save from mortal wounds for example.

From the FAQ:

Quote
Q: Can abilities such as Disgustingly Resilient be used to ignore
wounds if they were inflicted by mortal wounds?
A: Yes.

Q: If a model has two rules that allow it to ignore wounds, such
as the Disgustingly Resilient ability and the Tenacious Survivor
Warlord Trait, can I use them both?
A: Unless stated otherwise, yes.

For example, if a model had the two aforementioned
abilities and lost a wound, you could roll a D6 due to
the Disgustingly Resilient ability and on a roll of 5+ that
wound would be ignored. If you rolled less than 5, you
could then roll another D6 because of the Tenacious
Survivor Warlord Trait, and this time the wound would
be ignored on a 6.

Mind you, Fortune's effect specifies that it doesn't stack with anything else, which is irritating.

Offline Shadenuat

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2017, 03:45:42 AM »
Except that http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/07/40k-suffer-not-wound-take.html

Tyranid ability was fixed to work just as DR or nurgle marines. Fortune not.

Online The Mattler

  • Brother Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 255
    • View Profile
Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2017, 08:47:04 AM »
Except that http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/07/40k-suffer-not-wound-take.html

Tyranid ability was fixed to work just as DR or nurgle marines. Fortune not.
I'm as annoyed by Fortune's lack of stacking as you are, but it still works on mortal wounds.  The issue is that GW plays fast and loose with their terminology; the FAQ brings up a few examples, especially how "destroyed" and "slain" are just synonyms for "removed as a casualty", and you can add "wiped out" to the list when talking about multi-level units.  "Damaged", "loses a wound", and "suffers a wound" are all after armour and invulnerable saving throws, but before all of the "regeneration" (to use an old WHFB term) abilities that prevent the unit from actually getting hurt by the attacks.  The issue is made even more confusing because a "successfully wounding" is a positive result of a to-wound roll, which then becomes "allocated" prior to armour/invulnerable saves.

Offline Shadenuat

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2017, 09:49:27 AM »
You think the striking difference between Fortune & Molten Body can be explained with just GW being incompetent as always with wording their rules?

Offline DCannon4Life

  • Grand Master
  • *
  • Posts: 983
    • View Profile
Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2017, 11:50:32 PM »
You think the striking difference between Fortune & Molten Body can be explained with just GW being incompetent as always with wording their rules?
Or you could attribute the difference to GW's (newfound) sensitivity to making things 'unkillable'.

As for, "incompetent as always"; what percentage of all rules written by GW would you classify as 'incompetent'? And, presuming you don't classify the vast majority of the rules as such, do you imagine there may be other explanations for why they write rules the way they do?
First, you must learn Balance. --Miyagi