Author Topic: Loosing in the list construction phase.  (Read 2039 times)

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Offline Izzycat218

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Loosing in the list construction phase.
« on: October 21, 2017, 08:50:36 AM »
Title says it all. Most othe time my games are decided in the deployment phase when I get to see the other player's list. I try to stay in that sweet spot in between casual and competitive. Unfortunately most of the people I play with bring competitive casual list so usually my list is too soft so to speak and the game is decided turn three.

When I started playing none of the local vets went through list construction with me so I've been trying to find what works, but I've reached the stage where I'm tried of being steamrolled every game.

Any suggestions on resources to look into. Not many articles go into the reasoning why x is better than Y in a given codex its mainly always take X period with no explanation.

Thanks for any replies.

Offline Eryx_UK

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Re: Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2017, 04:10:09 PM »
Even after playing 40K for 30 years I still don't fully understand list construction. I'm a fluffy/narrative player who takes what feels right for the army and/or individual unit. I try to consider weapon strengths and weaknesses although 8th has largely done away with weaknesses thankfully. Everyone has a different view whether something is or isn't worth the points or abilities. Although under 8th I find it is less about the list so much as looking at what your opponent has fielded and understanding where you need to focus fire.


My recommendations are this are as follows. If you are a casual player then play casual. Learn through playing what does and doesn't work. My other suggestion is do what you've sort of mentioned in your post and ask those competitive players for their advice. They'll leap on the opportunity to help you get better at the game and your list building.

Good luck.
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Offline Izzycat218

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Re: Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2017, 05:25:45 PM »
I've asked them and have gotten nothing from them unfortunately. Figured I'd try my luck here. Thanks for the response though:)

Offline russellmoo

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Re: Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2017, 11:47:50 PM »
Without knowing what army you are playing it is going to be difficult to offer a solid response. Different armies play differently- as they should.

For starters-

When it comes to competitive list building or tournament style lists you have 3 options all seek to maximize firepower/durability and take advantage of certain in game mechanics-

Horde style list- this list features large units of dirt cheap bodies accompanied with some form of extremely effective/efficient wound delivery system (meaning tons of "smite" or str 7, 8, 9 weapons with re-rolls to hit.

Elite style list- this list focuses solely on quality over quantity- usually the unit or units that combine durability with high damage output

Gimmick lists- This list uses the rules set to max advantage- such as stacking -1 to hit modifiers and character rules- e.g. Assassin spam.

Post your preferred army- and I'm sure more help will be forthcoming.

Online SharkoutofWata

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Re: Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2017, 12:42:51 AM »
In the current Edition, consistency is king.  It used to be that Mobility won out with even poor armies working out as long as they had the units that could get where they needed to be, but now consistency is the name of the game.  If you consistently deal damage, consistently survive, consistently get where you need to go, consistently overwhelm what your opponent can reasonably put out, you will win and usually win on Turn 1 with the rest of the game just a cleaning up operation.

The reason that advice is usually X is better just stems down to the plain mathematical fact that X is in fact better.  It pushes more damage through, it earns its points back, it requires attention or whatever way that that unit does things, it will do that thing nearly every game you play.  Anything less than X's level is not worth consideration.  Nine times out of ten, the person saying X is better has either heard that it is better or just has that gut feeling that it is better or some non-math combination of the two, but the mathhammer should still reflect the result.  I don't know the math on two units of Hellblasters supported by Gulliman and a Relic Banner, but I know for damn sure that it's the best use of Gulliman while keeping him mobile and in use all game. 

The issue though with a talk like this is that it doesn't and can't take into account your differences in playstyle compared to mine.  For instance, that Gulliman Hellblaster group doesn't perform as well for me because I am a primarily defensive player and spring traps when I have the chance, so I get less from them than a fully aggressive 'let them die' player because I am too conservative.  It doesn't make the unit a wrong choice, it doesn't make a unitless competitive but it doesn't make a unit more right than say my Captain supported Sergeant Chronus in a Land Raider.  My playstyle is better suited for one than the other, and that can get lost in the black and white that most competitive conversations turn into.

Offline Izzycat218

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Re: Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2017, 02:21:08 AM »
Currently I have 5000 pts of tau and 1500ish of Nids. As far as play style goes I'm more on the aggressive side of the line.

Offline Sensenbob

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Re: Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2017, 07:46:39 AM »
As far as Resources for Tactics and Units go, i'd Suggest googling:

1d4chan 40k tactics
frontlinegaming tactics

Especially 1d4chan provides a complete rundown of all units.

The forum can help you improve/tweak your lists and suggest some tactics if you provide more information on lists, your playstyle and importantly your local Meta! Perhaps outline the problems you mostly run into.

From my experience Tau can at least still put out some horrendously strong Alpha Strike that really cripples the opponent and have lots of cheap units for bubblewrapping and protecting against deep strikes and some nice flexible deep strikers themselves.
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Offline Leftovers44

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Re: Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 01:27:27 PM »
List construction is an interesting but very important part of the game, it is usually one of the first things my gaming group tries to work on with newer players. Who without guidance will make some bizarre choices, like a 10man strong tactical marine squad in a drop pod armed with storm bolters and power fists in 7th edition.

A big part of it is not always just looking at individual units for the best in it's category but also trying to visualize or understand how you will use them on the table. Does your local meta mean taking more meltas for anti tank or flamers for anti horde? From what i experienced with 8th edition is it favors a lot of cost effective mass shooting units and if your codex came out already you have a unfair advantage over people using the index.

A lot of the Tau players at my club are either playing other armies right now or just not playing 8th until their codex is out because the index currently has a bunch of over costed wargear and units in it. They are just in a pretty poor spot right now unfortunately but I could be wrong about this but tau have died at my club.

Offline Izzycat218

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Re: Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 07:29:34 PM »
We have a diverse meta that skews towards mechanized. Lots of guard and marine players.

Offline Docopps

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Re: Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2017, 07:22:34 PM »
Check out blood of kittens

http://bloodofkittens.com/

they have all the tournament winning lists for each army.  If you want to have a more competitive list i would start there.