Author Topic: 8th Ed Eldar - Proposed ideas for Army lists and army lists for feedback  (Read 4113 times)

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Online The Mattler

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Re: 8th Ed Eldar - Proposed ideas for Army lists and army lists for feedback
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2017, 10:21:00 PM »
My initial thoughts:
- I'm going back to how I used to play Eldar. 100% of my army vs 1/3 of theirs.
That's how everyone should play every army in 40k.  The nice part about playing Aeldari is that we have the speed and deployment shenanigans to concentrate our forces properly.

- You need a 20 man strong type bubble wrap unit to wrap your army
An alternative is to use cheap units like Rangers to make deep strike denial bubbles in the midfield, and spread out your fastest units to do the same in your deployment zone because they can reposition quickly if necessary.  Furthermore, some MSU units a little way out from your forces, meaning that melee units waste their damage overkilling them, but are too far away to consolidate into the next combat with vulnerable ranged units.

- Units should probably be bought in larger and not MSU style formations The actual impact is larger and you get more bacng for buck
Sort of.  Big units are better for psychic buffs and deployment shenanigans, and MSU units limit losses and waste enemy damage while minimizing their own overkill.  They both have their place.  I would have no problem dumping 20 Wraithguard onto the table via Webway Strike, and have 6x5 Dire Avengers and 3x3 Shining Spears in the same list (for example).

- I still see Psychic powers as how to do 'real damage' to your opponent. A farseer and at least 2-3 warlocks or spiritseer is a must.
NO, NOT EVEN CLOSE.  Never take Warlocks unless you literally cannot spend the points on anything else, including reorganizing your unit sizes to avoid taking Warlocks. If you want cheap HQ choices on foot, use Spiritseers every time.  The whole point of taking a cheap HQ is to unlock other stuff that more efficient, but you know what's not efficient?  WARLOCKS.  Take 10 of those points you were saving for other units to upgrade the Warlock to a Spiritseer, which doubles its wounds (can't die to the first Perils), doubles both the range and damage (roughly, it's actually better than that) of its psychic attack, and gives it an aura that might come in handy.  Don't even get me started on the Warlock Skyrunner, which it sooooo bad compared to 2 Shining Spears it's embarassing.  There's only one thing in the Craftworlds Codex worse than Warlocks: MORE WARLOCKS!  The Conclaves take garbage units, pile them up, and gleefully set them on fire.  They have the same problems as the corresponding lone models, but even worse psychic abilities...somehow.

- Certain combos cant be stopped. Since they are very reliable, they can usually be counted on and therefore should make it into a lot of lists:
  • 10 Fire dragons dropping in via webway gate
Agreed, although if you're dropping one unit with Webway Strike, you should probably be dropping two.  The 3 CP is totally worth it, and prime candidates other than Fire Dragons are 20 Guardians or 10 Wraithguard (with Wraithcannons).  Frankly, I think I prefer the Wraithguard to the Fire Dragons.

  • 10 Wraithblades OR Wraithguard with D-Sythes. Add a WArlock on a bike to move to a part of the table where you intend them to land. Then use Quicken on the wratihguard to move them closer. This takes more coordination then the fire dragons, but they are tougher, could also get Protect from another warlock and if a unit charges them that 10 auto hit D-Sythes.. ouch!
Warlocks, always with the Warlocks! ;)  It's true that you can make the Quicken plan fairly reliable with the Spirit Stone of Anath'lan, but it still involves using a Warlock Skyrunner.  Otherwise, Quicken has a 42% failure rate even before DtW (if in range), and I don't like the possibility of stranding an expensive unit and screwing up my battle plan because I went for a(n almost) coin flip instead of a sure thing.  Put the Scytheguard in a Wave Serpent (both Ulthwe) with Vectored Engines, and they'll either reach their target or absorb an absurd amount of firepower if they don't.  The 3 Shuriken Cannons on the Wave Serpent, plus the discharged shield after disembarkation (reusable for 1 CP) is roughly double then replaced Warlock's damage output anyway, and the tank is much tougher too.  Never use Warlocks.  Also, despite the extra cost, Scytheguard are better than Wraithblades for pretty much any situation in which you'd even consider using Wraithblades.  The only downside is that Scytheguard don't look as cool.

  • Drain (enemy unit -1 to hit in fight phase) + Enervate (enemy unit must subtract 1 from all wound rolls in fight phase)
You're spending points to debuff an enemy unit when you could be spending them on killing it.  Two Smites could have killed a bunch of models with higher chances of successful casting, for example. 

  • Strategem Matchless Agility (1cp - Advance 6") + Quicken (move as if it was the movement phase. This is more about catching an opponent out. Now you see a unit, now its in your fasce. Banshees anyone?
Alternatively, use Warriors of the Raging Winds on some Saim-Hann Shining Spears for the same charge distance without needing Quicken.  Also comes with better defenses, lots of ranged firepower, and better melee attacks compared to Banshees, as well as the two re-rolls in the strategem.  If you really needed Quicken that point you could always have your Warlock Spiritseer cast it, and the Spears gain a ton more movement than the Banshees do.

  • Lightning Fast reactions (2cp - Infantry with fly keyword - e.g. warp spiders or your autarch, enemy -1 to hit in that phase) + Conceal (-1 to hit for all range weapons) + Warspiders Flickerjump (-1 to hit). Even if your a space marines your only hitting on 6's.
The Warp Siders benefit from the strategem because they're Asuryani infantry, not because they can (sometimes) fly.  In fact, they only keep the Fly keyword until then end of the Movement phase.  You also forgot the possibility of the Alaitoc attribute, for a total of -4 in some cases.

- I think a lot of armies need a farseer and 3-4 warlocks on bikes just to punch out these combos. Banshees threat range alone is insane with this. (M8" + Matchless agility A6" + Quicken M8" + 15" charge at least)
Friends don't let friends field Warlocks, especially on bikes.  . I already compared the Banshees unfavourably to Spears, but I didn't address the Farseer above, so I'll do it here.  In a list with lots of shuriken weapons, Doom can be excellent.  Guide is useful when you have something like 10 Fire Dragons, 10 Wraithguard, 20 Guardians, 10 Dark Reapers, or maybe even a  Wraithknight.  Otherwise, it's worse than Executioner.   Fortune is only good if you have a big  unit that your opponent is likely to attack; if they don't attack it (probably because it was Fortuned), you have at least partially wasted a psychic power; however, there might have been some strategic benefit to you when your opponent's target priority shifting.  Doom+ Executioner is the default Farseer plan.  Unlike Warlcks, putting the Farseer (or Autarch, fornthat matter) on a bike is almost always a good idea, improving positioning, ranged firepower, and durability.

Command points and battallions
-------------------------------------
- I think most eldar armies, to get access to enough strategems should be 2 Battalions. With that you get 9 CP. If you add a "cheap" battalion on top, yes it costs more points, but you also get 3 more CP for a total of 12 CP. (3 rangers, 2 warlocks) = Battalion for 250 points. 500 points you can have 2 battalions.

Going nutts example! Escpeccially if this was a Beil Tan army!

Battalion 1
-------------
HQ
----
2 warlocks

Troops
---------
5 x Dire Avengers
5 x Dire Avengers
5 x Dire Avengers

Battalion 2
-------------
HQ
----
2 warlocks

Troops
---------
5 x Dire Avengers
5 x Dire Avengers
5 x Dire Avengers

Brigade 1
------------
HQ
----
3 warlocks

Troops
----
5 x Dire Avengers
5 x Dire Avengers
5 x Dire Avengers
5 x Dire Avengers
5 x Dire Avengers
5 x Dire Avengers

Elite
----
5 x Banshees with exarch and executioner
5 x Banshees with exarch and executioner
5 x Banshees with exarch and executioner

Fast Attack
----
5 x swooping hawks with exarch
5 x swooping hawks with exarch
5 x swooping hawks with exarch

Heavy
----
1 x war walker with shur cannons
1 x war walker with shur cannons
1 x war walker with shur cannons

- Ok ok... perhaps this is a bit nutts, however. 3 + 3 + 3 +9 = 18 command points.
- It is 1601 points. You still have 399 points left to spend. Get rid of an executioner from a banshee and you can still put in a wraithknight!
- If its a beil tan army, Shuriken heaven! Its about 159 shuriken cannon shots and 60 swooping hawk shots.

That is before you add your 400 points. If you added a fire dragon unit and drop it in? perhaps upgrade all the psykers to bikes and the odd farseer?  Something anti-tank... It would still be fun to play.
- Add Asumran for the 4+ Invun! AND replace a banshee unit with 8 wraithblades AND exchange a warlock on a bike. Now your bringing in a unit, quicken them into close combat and your army has a 4++ invun save. Walk it forward. The spiney bladewind of death.

- my 2 cents (so have a lot to learn for 8th)
STAHP ;)  Regarding the detachments, I'd definitely recommend a Brigade if you can manage it, but a Battalion + 2 Vanguard/Outrider/Spearhead is good for more specialized forces.  Air Wing too, which is almost certainly going to be Alaitoc.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 10:40:32 PM by The Mattler »

Online Odras

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Re: 8th Ed Eldar - Proposed ideas for Army lists and army lists for feedback
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2017, 02:43:47 AM »
Awesome post as always Mattler.

I have been trying to explain a lot of those things, particularly with the psychic powers and warlocks to people since the codex dropped. Yes the powers look good, and yes warlocks appear cheap, but they are both very risky things.

It is the same as last edition, if you spend X number of points psykers to buff your units or debuff your enemy you are almost always better off having spent those points buying more of your key units than you are buffing them. The psykers are good, but only taken as needed to fill your detachments, not as the key to your army doing damage.

Quote
Put the Scytheguard in a Wave Serpent (both Ulthwe) with Vectored Engines
I agree, finally someone else who says to take your serpents as Ulthwe rather than Alaitoc. I have been shot down several times since the codex launched for pointing out that Ulthwe is probably a better bonus for wave serpents who are transporting something.

Quote
Regarding the detachments, I'd definitely recommend a Brigade if you can manage it, but a Battalion + 2 Vanguard/Outrider/Spearhead is good for more specialized forces.  Air Wing too, which is almost certainly going to be Alaitoc.
Interesting opinion there, I still find our troops not worth taking even after the codex. I don't see the extra command points being worth taking a minimum of 3 troops choices. My 2000 point list is 6 command points no troops.

I would also be interested on your opinion of Ynnari vs craftworld since the codex. I personally feel Ynnari are still better, when taken with a single detachment of craftworld Eldar in order to unlock the stratagems.

My current list for those interested:

Ulthwe Supreme Command Detachment: (Forsight of the Damned)
Spiritseer
Spiritseer
Spiritseer
Wave Serpent - 3 Shuriken Cannons, Vectored Engines
Wave Serpent - 3 Shuriken Cannons, Vectored Engines
Wave Serpent - 3 Shuriken Cannons, Vectored Engines

Ynnari, Ulthwe Vanguard Detachment:
Yvraine (Warlord)
Wraithguard - D-Scythes
Wraithguard - D-Scythes
Wraithguard - D-Scythes
Wraithguard - Wraithcannons

Ynnari, Ulthwe Spearhead Detachment:
Farseer
3 Dark Reapers - Reaper Launchers
3 Dark Reapers - Reaper Launchers
6 Dark Reapers - Reaper Launchers

Total: 1998 Points, 6 Command Points
 

Online The Mattler

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Re: 8th Ed Eldar - Proposed ideas for Army lists and army lists for feedback
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2017, 08:47:18 AM »
]
I agree, finally someone else who says to take your serpents as Ulthwe rather than Alaitoc. I have been shot down several times since the codex launched for pointing out that Ulthwe is probably a better bonus for wave serpents who are transporting something.
Alaitoc is better on the first turn when you're going second, otherwise Ulthwe is the best to go, especially because the unit inside also (usually, unless Ynnari) benefits from the attribute thereafter as well.  If you're driving into the enemy's face, the Alaitoc attribute doesn't do much.

Interesting opinion there, I still find our troops not worth taking even after the codex. I don't see the extra command points being worth taking a minimum of 3 troops choices. My 2000 point list is 6 command points no troops.
Deploying 40 Guardian Defenders via Webway Strike is scary, especially with Doom; they can kill pretty much anything.  For example, they're as efficient as a Crimson Hunter when it comes to killing Wraithknights, even though they only wound it on 6s (and that's without Doom).  Dire Avengers are great MSU midfield controllers.  Rangers block a lot of deep strike space for a low cost and have long range guns for putting mortal wounds on irritating targets like characters and monsters.  The only Troops that don't seem to have a purpose are the Storm Guardians because the Defenders do the same job better.

I would also be interested on your opinion of Ynnari vs craftworld since the codex. I personally feel Ynnari are still better, when taken with a single detachment of craftworld Eldar in order to unlock the stratagems.
That's probably true overall, although there are certain Craftworld detachments that have specific utility, such as an Iyanden Spearhead with 3 cheap Wraithlords (full shuriken and ghostglaives) and a Spiritseer carrying the Psytronome (optional 40 Webway Strike Guardians because they don't care about Morale, at which point one more Troops choice and a 2nd Spiritseer gets you another +2 CP with a Battalion), Alaitoc Air Wings, Saim-hann Novalance Autarch with 3x3 Shining Spears, etc.  The latter is actually a nice complement to an Ynnari force, come to think of it. :)

Ulthwe Supreme Command Detachment: (Forsight of the Damned)
Spiritseer
Spiritseer
Spiritseer
Wave Serpent - 3 Shuriken Cannons, Vectored Engines
Wave Serpent - 3 Shuriken Cannons, Vectored Engines
Wave Serpent - 3 Shuriken Cannons, Vectored Engines

Ynnari, Ulthwe Vanguard Detachment:
Yvraine (Warlord)
Wraithguard - D-Scythes
Wraithguard - D-Scythes
Wraithguard - D-Scythes
Wraithguard - Wraithcannons

Ynnari, Ulthwe Spearhead Detachment:
Farseer
3 Dark Reapers - Reaper Launchers
3 Dark Reapers - Reaper Launchers
6 Dark Reapers - Reaper Launchers

Total: 1998 Points, 6 Command Points
I like it, especially what you're doing with the Supreme Command detachment.  I might be able to comment more in depth if you describe your typical deployment, battle plan, and preferred Strategem.  Looking at your list made me think of a decent reason to choose Atlantic on a Wave Serpent: if you are using Ynnari, you can put Yvraine and 10 Dark Reapers in an Alaitoc Wave Serpent.  It's slightly better turn 1 protection when going 2nd, making it more likely that you can get absurd value out of those Reapers.  You might end up having to redeploy with Phantasm, though, if your opponent realizes what's going on.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 12:06:17 PM by The Mattler »

Online Chmmr_X

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Re: 8th Ed Eldar - Proposed ideas for Army lists and army lists for feedback
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2017, 08:32:01 PM »

I agree, finally someone else who says to take your serpents as Ulthwe rather than Alaitoc. I have been shot down several times since the codex launched for pointing out that Ulthwe is probably a better bonus for wave serpents who are transporting something.


I agree with this. However, you have to be very careful that the transport only carries units only from its own Craftworld, you cannot say, put a Biel Tan Guardian Squad into an Ulthwe Transport. Just be aware about it. This kinda stops you from mixing and matching things everywhere... (Although your list illustrates this well enough that you don't have that problem)

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Re: 8th Ed Eldar - Proposed ideas for Army lists and army lists for feedback
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2017, 11:38:01 PM »
I agree with this. However, you have to be very careful that the transport only carries units only from its own Craftworld, you cannot say, put a Biel Tan Guardian Squad into an Ulthwe Transport. Just be aware about it. This kinda stops you from mixing and matching things everywhere... (Although your list illustrates this well enough that you don't have that problem)

Yes this can be a bit of a trap. You have to remember that the <Craftworld> keyword is just a placeholder and that your chosen <Craftworld> keywords restrict you in what you can do if you want to mix and match.

I like it, especially what you're doing with the Supreme Command detachment.  I might be able to comment more in depth if you describe your typical deployment, battle plan, and preferred Strategem.  Looking at your list made me think of a decent reason to choose Atlantic on a Wave Serpent: if you are using Ynnari, you can put Yvraine and 10 Dark Reapers in an Alaitoc Wave Serpent.  It's slightly better turn 1 protection when going 2nd, making it more likely that you can get absurd value out of those Reapers.  You might end up having to redeploy with Phantasm, though, if your opponent realizes what's going on.

I have only played 2 games with this list post Eldar codex, but I did also play a similar list before the codex. My past list was only 1 spiritseer, only 3 squads of wraithguard all with D-Scythes, but 14 Dark Reapers instead of 12. The wave serpents also used to have star engines and spirit stones too. Only 2 detachments, Vanguard + Spearhead.

The following is my normal thinking before a game:
  • Do they have deepstrikers?
  • Are they likely to castle up in one part of their deployment to avoid my wraithguard serpents?
  • Do I have first turn?

The key stratagems I use are Phantasm, Lightning Reflexes, Webway Portal, Forewarning.

Phantasm is often used to make up for the slightly less range my wave serpents have now I don't have points for Star Engines, I want to guarantee that any wraithguard still alive are doing their D-Scythe Ynnari thing by turn 2. I have considered using this to bait out some bad positioning from my opponent with a poorly placed wave serpent but generally find it not worth the use of CP.

Lightning Reflexes is to keep my wave serpents alive better, either combining with Vectored engines if I go first or to get -1 to hit if I go second. I found in both my games that thinking carefully about when I use lightning reflexes plays with my opponents thinking.

If they have deep strikers that are likely to go after my dark reapers I will leave my farseer behind with the reapers, take guide instead of executioner and use Forewarning to protect them from deepstrikers.

Most of the time I use webway portal to drop the squad of wraithguard with wraithcannons and shoot something big. I normally drop them down the same turn that I unload my other wraithguard to maximise the threats that the opponent has in their face. The three spiritseers are quite often nearby so sometimes I use the stratagem to extend their aura to ensure the wraithcannons hit.

My general strategy with the list is to use the wraithguard and serpents all together as a big deathball that focuses on killing as much as possible and maximising soulburst opportunities while the reapers are long range fire support focusing on the biggest threats to the wraiths with support psykers for each group. Normally 1 spiritseer with conceal, and Yvraine stays with the reapers, while 2 spiritseers with quicken / restrain and protect / jinx along with the farseer with executioner and doom goes with the wraiths. Farseer stays behind if I am worried about deep strike. I use the small reaper squads as both soulburst bait and deepstrike denial often placing them in unfavourable positions to do so. Depending on the army I am facing, I sometimes place the wraithcannon wraithguard on the table to both prevent deepstrikes and as a deterrence to my oponants big things even if I don't actually kill anything.

As you identified in your post this list has 2 main weaknesses, going second and capturing spread out objectives. The wraithguard are much less effective when spread out and the reapers are generally not moving much from where they start.  When I go second, I have found I use at least 4 command points of lightning reflexes and probably one to re-roll a 1 and prevent my wraithguard dying when their transport dies. I like your idea of 9 shining spears and a novalance Autach.

In general I have not really found a need to protect Yvraine and the Dark Reapers first turn, although I can see that against some armies that might be a good idea.

Online mcphro

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Re: 8th Ed Eldar - Proposed ideas for Army lists and army lists for feedback
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2017, 05:35:46 AM »
I take your point guys on warlocks etc. I'm not the font of all knowledge in 40k and don't profess to be. Even the menu are not really articles from me, but rather I've put the call out to all of you to contribute.

Saying all that:
- my point was obviously about the fact that 8th Ed 40k is the synergy around characters. Trouble for Eldar is that we don't get synergy like a chapter master gives a space marine chapter. Most of ours seems to be reroll 1's.

Saying that where the synergy is for us in in our psychic powers. I also agree about warlocks, I guess i wasn't so much trying to advocate for them, rather im advocating for their psychic powers. So if its more efficient to take spiritseers so be it.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 05:42:14 AM by mcphro »

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Re: 8th Ed Eldar - Proposed ideas for Army lists and army lists for feedback
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2017, 07:27:08 AM »
BATTALION (Alaitoc)

HQ
Asurmen
Karandras

TROOPS
6x Dire Avengers + Exarch with diresword
6x Dire Avengers + Exarch with diresword
6x Dire Avengers + Exarch with diresword

FAST ATTACK
6Χ Warp Spiders + Exarch with two Death Spinners and Powerblades
6Χ Warp Spiders + Exarch with two Death Spinners and Powerblades

HEAVY SUPPORT
3x Dark Reapers + Exarch
Fire prism, Crystal Targeting Matrix
Fire prism, Crystal Targeting Matrix

VANGUARD (Saim-Hann)

HQ
Autarch Skyrunner with Laser Lance + The Novalance of Saim-Hann
Spiritseer with quicken

ELITES
Bonesinger
8x Striking Scorpions + Exarch with claw
10x Wraithblades with ghostswords


We start with 2 fire prisms and a unit of 4 dark reapers field at the corner of my deployment zone and a bonesinger to heal the prisms if needed. These units have to be deployed in a way to prevent any enemy deepstriking unit behind them. Plus I will make use of their range.

In-frond of them I will have 3 units of 7 dire avengers with diresword exarchs and Asurmen to give them 4+ invu. These units are my first line of defense. They can move and shoot with their 18" range, they can overwatch and if anything charge them the direswords and Asurmen will make them regret it.

The Spiders deepstike near the enemy and shoot him, but I want to prevent any enemy unit from charge them sooooooo 10 Wraithblades and the spiritseer deepstriking in front of them with webway portal.

I have to confuse the opponent that's why I will field a unit of 9 striking scorpions with claw exarch and karandras and as a second deepstriking unit at the back of his army. With the re-rolls at charges or the +2" I think that they will keep him busy. Plus I will be ready to attack any sniping or covered unit at the back.

The autarch will give me rerolls and maybe some command points back.

I could field the spiritseer and all heavy support in a spearhead detachment for more command points.

So I think that splitting the army in two fronts and intimidating the opponent with all the deepstriking units will make him ignore the heavy support at the back.
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Online Chmmr_X

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Re: 8th Ed Eldar - Proposed ideas for Army lists and army lists for feedback
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2017, 10:20:14 PM »
BATTALION (Alaitoc)

HQ
Asurmen
Karandras

TROOPS
6x Dire Avengers + Exarch with diresword
6x Dire Avengers + Exarch with diresword
6x Dire Avengers + Exarch with diresword

FAST ATTACK
6Χ Warp Spiders + Exarch with two Death Spinners and Powerblades
6Χ Warp Spiders + Exarch with two Death Spinners and Powerblades

HEAVY SUPPORT
3x Dark Reapers + Exarch
Fire prism, Crystal Targeting Matrix
Fire prism, Crystal Targeting Matrix

VANGUARD (Saim-Hann)

HQ
Autarch Skyrunner with Laser Lance + The Novalance of Saim-Hann
Spiritseer with quicken

ELITES
Bonesinger
8x Striking Scorpions + Exarch with claw
10x Wraithblades with ghostswords


We start with 2 fire prisms and a unit of 4 dark reapers field at the corner of my deployment zone and a bonesinger to heal the prisms if needed. These units have to be deployed in a way to prevent any enemy deepstriking unit behind them. Plus I will make use of their range.

In-frond of them I will have 3 units of 7 dire avengers with diresword exarchs and Asurmen to give them 4+ invu. These units are my first line of defense. They can move and shoot with their 18" range, they can overwatch and if anything charge them the direswords and Asurmen will make them regret it.

The Spiders deepstike near the enemy and shoot him, but I want to prevent any enemy unit from charge them sooooooo 10 Wraithblades and the spiritseer deepstriking in front of them with webway portal.

I have to confuse the opponent that's why I will field a unit of 9 striking scorpions with claw exarch and karandras and as a second deepstriking unit at the back of his army. With the re-rolls at charges or the +2" I think that they will keep him busy. Plus I will be ready to attack any sniping or covered unit at the back.

The autarch will give me rerolls and maybe some command points back.

I could field the spiritseer and all heavy support in a spearhead detachment for more command points.

So I think that splitting the army in two fronts and intimidating the opponent with all the deepstriking units will make him ignore the heavy support at the back.

My 2 sen worth:

1) Dark Reaper squad is a bit too small to be much of a threat in my opinion. They'll die off too easily. 5 in a squad is what works for me.
2) How do you intend to deliver the Wraithblades? Through Webway portal?
3) For the dire avengers, I think it'd be better to arm 2/3 of them with 2 DSCs instead of a diresword. You'd want their ranged capabilities more and you have Asurmen to deal with CC a bit more. If you'd want screening units, more Guardians would be better I think but Dire Avengers with 4++ can be deadly too.
4) The Skyrunner Autarch seem a little out of place. With no escort for him in the form of jetbikes of Shining Spears, I fear that it would be a bit of a point sink. If you'd want him just for the rerolls, him on foot would be more than sufficient.

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Re: 8th Ed Eldar - Proposed ideas for Army lists and army lists for feedback
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2017, 02:02:29 AM »

My 2 sen worth:

1) Dark Reaper squad is a bit too small to be much of a threat in my opinion. They'll die off too easily. 5 in a squad is what works for me.
2) How do you intend to deliver the Wraithblades? Through Webway portal?
3) For the dire avengers, I think it'd be better to arm 2/3 of them with 2 DSCs instead of a diresword. You'd want their ranged capabilities more and you have Asurmen to deal with CC a bit more. If you'd want screening units, more Guardians would be better I think but Dire Avengers with 4++ can be deadly too.
4) The Skyrunner Autarch seem a little out of place. With no escort for him in the form of jetbikes of Shining Spears, I fear that it would be a bit of a point sink. If you'd want him just for the rerolls, him on foot would be more than sufficient.

1) Probably you are right. I am going to try the unit with 4 models because now this is all I have, but I have never tested them again so I will see how they perform.
2) Wraighblades + spiritseer with webway portal yes!
3) I have tested this format and I love it. They have a great shooting ability, they have their 4++  and I won't be very lucky every time to hold the opponent back, that's why I put the diresword on the exarch, in case of many different enemy units. (plus now that I don't play ynnari I can't attack twice with asurmen.... I need some more attacks.)
4) I was thinking that I could use his speed and his lance. I don't know how this will perform. I hope that because he is a character he will survive but.....
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Re: 8th Ed Eldar - Proposed ideas for Army lists and army lists for feedback
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2017, 04:53:14 PM »
Anyone have any advice around a Beil Tan shuriken army?

Do you think anti-tank is still required, or is it better to go full shuriken relying on the -3 rends? i.e. I wonder what 9 x 10 man Dire Avenger or 9 x 10 man Guardian squads in 3 battalions advancing up the field would be like (not that I'm going to purchase all of those models).

e.g. 3 battalions (no hqs yet) with 3 guardian squads in each with a bright lance is 949 points. But for that, you get 180 Shuriken catapult shots and 9 Brightlance shots.

Add Doom on an imperial knight and it's going to hurt, isn't it? And besides HQs you still have 900 odd points you can still add.

If you go Dire Avengers instead, you don't get the bright lances and you DO have to take Asurman and more Hq's, But you do get (if you can somehow fit him) an army 4++ save.

I think I prefer the guardians because you can move 7", advance D6 (average 4) + Shoot 12, so you do still get a 23" threat range, and you have good anti-tank even if you are hitting on 4's.

Guardians with a farseer on a bike and 7 Spirit seers for full smites is still only 1305 points for the core army.

For 700 points if you worried the enemy is going to get closer, you can buy things like 9 howling banshee squads with shuriken pistols that also gets the rerolls and use them to bubble wrap your guardians and just advance and shoot into 1/4 - 1/2 their army. And just using Banshees as an example, that's 1998 points.

7 Spirit Seers
1 Farseer Skyrunner
9 Guardian Defender squads with 9 bright lances
9 Howling Banshee squads with exarchs with executioners

180 x shuriken catapults shots
50 Shuriken pistol shots
9 Bright lance shots
Potential for 8 Smites

9 x Close combat units all moving, advancing and charging the same part of the board for the combined Hand to Hand and the entire army except the bright lances (which cant be sniped out and will last to the last guardian defender) and can shoot different targets to the guardians - sure at 4+ to hit).

I get it also - guardians arnt hard to kill, even in cover either. But thats a LOT of models to focus down - about 140 of them. And no shortage of models to get objectives on your side.

What do you think the enemy has to focus on first. Sure the safest place to be is in close combat so they cant be shot, but that's also what the banshees are for.

Or should a beil tan list include units like warwalkers waveaerpents and vypers?

Or should a beil tan army be focussing on as many shuriken weapons as possible.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 09:01:09 PM by mcphro »

Online mcphro

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Re: 8th Ed Eldar - Proposed ideas for Army lists and army lists for feedback
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2017, 05:04:04 PM »
My next list ... Biel Tan Brigade

HQ
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Asurman
Avatar
Farseer Skyrunner

Troops
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5 x Dire avengers inc exarch with twin Shur catapults
5 x Dire avengers inc exarch with twin Shur catapults
5 x Dire avengers inc exarch with twin Shur catapults
5 x Dire avengers inc exarch with twin Shur catapults
5 x Dire avengers inc exarch with twin Shur catapults
17 x Storm Guardians (acts as a screen) - I DO wish I had a Spiritseer in this list

Elites
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7 x howling banshees inc exarch with executioner
7 x howling banshees inc exarch with executioner
7 x howling banshees inc exarch with executioner

Fast Attack
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5 x swooping hawks inc exarch with sun rifle (to put pressure on screens)
5 x swooping hawks inc exarch with sun rifle
3 x Vypers in a squadron with 2 shuriken cannons

Heavy Support
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1 x Wraithlord with twin shuriken Cannons and 2 shuriken catapults
1 x Wraithlord with twin shuriken Cannons and 2 shuriken catapults
1 x Wraithlord with twin shuriken Cannons and 2 shuriken catapults

Options
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Reduce banshee squads to minimum and maybe a vyper to take:

1. Either another wraithlord OR
2. Remove 1 more storm guardian and a wraithlord with no cannons for A patrol detachment and an Auxillery support detachment with:

HQ
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Spiritseer
SpiritSeer

Troops
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5 x rangers (just to increase the range their deep strikers have to take to get to me and to put some pressure on characters)

Auxillery Support Detachment (-1 CP)

HQ
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SpiritSeer

Explanation:

- This gives: From the farseer fortune (for a reason) and Doom
- Spiritseer: Quicken
- SpiritSeer: Protect
- SpiritSeer: Conceal

The idea is to screen the bulk of the force with the rangers/ 16 storm guardians in a line. Cast Protect, conceal and Fortune on them. The effect on this screen is quite dramatic and they become very resilient. (Even if they get first turn, cast this on other units etc).

You can also cast: Reveal for no cover bonus, Jinx so they get -1 armour, and Restrian if you have that land raider or Khorne Beserker unit chargng you etc. Ans you can still fortune them.

You also get 3 full smites (ok i get it.. no warlocks lol)

-1 to hit, +1 armour, 5+ FNP. so if they are locked in combat, or whatever they will be a pain. They are simply to screen the main line from the bad guys. Ive been watching Frontline gaming videos and no matter what army reciuss takes, he always has a screen and its always engaged and does some work. That leaves my whole army to advance and use the howling banshees, swooping hawks and vypers to place pressure on a flank or specific direction while I haved 3 T8 creatures and the avatar all advancing together as a group to place pressure as well.

Finally you have Asurman and the dire avengers with an army 4++ invun and if advanced correctly, then the banshess while in range also have a 5++ save as well. Of course then the main trick is reroll all 1's for all shuriken weapons in the army rending.

The only trick is to coordinate all that with Doom for nasties, movement and firepower to focus units down one at a time.

MC Strategy.
- Avatar center with a spiritseer every 60 degrees and the farseer.
- Wraithlords then on the outside of this. This means it is simply not possible for other units to get to your avatar and farseer (warlord) as they advance forward. As a block, they have 4 x smites, and lots of large T8 and T6 attacks etc.




Online Odras

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Re: 8th Ed Eldar - Proposed ideas for Army lists and army lists for feedback
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2017, 06:26:52 PM »
While I still think they are bad, I did find a use for my warlock. I have a nicely painted warlock on jetbike that I took purely for that reason, but during the couple of games I played I found that the jetbikes movement was quite good at allowing me to get key debuffs on my oponant and avoid some chances for my oponant to deny my warlocks powers. The additional wound for being on the jetbike also saved me from a perils once too, although the increased points cost for this is not really justified.

TLDR: Not an optimal choice no matter how you look at it, but can be made to work in some situations.

Online Chmmr_X

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Re: 8th Ed Eldar - Proposed ideas for Army lists and army lists for feedback
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2017, 09:11:29 PM »
hey guys

Just played ONE game with Admech recently with this list:

Vanguard Detachment (Saim Hann)
HQ: Karandras

Elites:
2 X 7 Scorpions + Exarch with Scorpion's Claw
8 Howling banshees + Exarch with Executioner

Outrider Detachment (Saim Hann)
HQ:
Autarch Skyrunner with Novalance relic

Fast Attack:
4 Shining Spears + Exarch with Star Lance
2 X 3 Scatbikes

Spearhead Detachment (Alaitoc)
HQ:
Farseer (Guide + Fortune)

8 X Dark Reapers + Exarch with Tempest Launcher
3 X Fire Prism
Wave Serpent with Shuriken Canon

Supreme Command Detachment (Alaitoc)
3 Warlocks (Protect/Jinx, Empower/Enervate, Enhance/Drain)

A rough run-down of my opponents' list:
3 Onager Dune crawlers
4 troops with heavy snipers
1 big squad with plasma guns
Belarius crawl
1 Engineseer
1 HQ
1 BIG squad of cyborgs with 5 Str 3 shots each
2 smaller cyborg squads
1 squad of 3 walkers with CC weapons
(sorry I dunno their names... so can't really help all that much there)

My assessment thus far:

1) Fire Prism with Twin fire is seriously good. I popped an  Onager a turn very reliably to the point my opponent was crying OP and CHEESE non-stop. Fire Prisms are back!! The double firing and twin shot makes if a lot more viable now
2) Dark Reapers are still awesome
3) 2 Striking Scorpions and Banshees deepstriking in along with Shining Spears coming down your throat is enough to give your opponent cold sweat and he deploys in such a way that his snipers are all exposed but he denies enough that I cannot deploy behind his lines
4) I don't know why but even with Saim Hann's reroll charges, only my banshees made their charges reliably (thanks to 3" extra). Even making 9" charges cannot be relied upon
5) Warlock powers are awesome... IF they are able to fire off. Getting 7 WC without rerolls is really REALLY tough. Only my protect/jinx went through reliably. The protect/jinx allows me to bring down the enemy HQ with my Autarch fairly reliably by making his Invul saves 6++ instead of 5++.
6) Though not something you should rely upon, being able to roll 6 and regain your CP after using it is quite a good bonus. I regained at least 2 CP through lucky rolls as a result.
7) to utilise CW Aeldari to the full, CP is very important. Then, you have to balance the creation of a list full of CPs (multiple Batallions is very viable due to cheaper troops now) at the expense of firepower or capabilities to deal with some units or more fire power but less CP. Quite the balancing act
8) The CW keyword will limit what can be done. Pretty tricky.
9) DO NOT FORGET USING STRATAGEM! I forgot to use the 2 CP stratagem that enables you to shoot at a deepstriking unit. Could have neutered the 10 man cyborg team that came in... the one responsible for killing my Shining Spears... (When it came to my turn, 6 out of 9 of my Dark Reapers targetted them and neutered their 10 man team to 7. He was very unhappy obviously).

Sadly, I'm unable to truly get the most out of Karandras or the Shining Spears. I held back Karandras to appear only in turn 2 because my opponent had a lot of deepstriking units. So I had to ensure they don't appear in a spot I hate with nothing to support. When he DOES appear in Turn 2, he failed the charge... along with his Scorpion escort... typical. The Shining Spears died to 50 Str 3 shots that causes mortal wounds on a wound roll of 6. Not. Fun. At. All.

Admittedly my opponent generally had bad rolls, otherwise he could have caused more damage. I tabled him by turn 2. At the end of his turn, he conceded (I went first).

What I like about CW Aeldari now is that you have more choices to play with instead of the monotonous lists of the past. But it seems my current Spearhead detachment is going to be my standard MUST BRING for all my lists at the moment.