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Messages - SharkoutofWata

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General Discussion / Re: 8th Edition Lists
« on: Today at 12:13:49 AM »
I'm finishing up my Ynnari list with models I like and if they're no long playable together then oh friggin well.  I'll wait again just like I did between the latest Eldar Codex and now.  Eventually they'll be playable in the way I like.  I'm used to shelving armies because of rules, either their own or general meta changes but it's not going to stop me from collecting the army.  I have plenty of options to choose from, I'm sure one of my armies will be playable no matter what comes next.

General Discussion / Re: Which assault themed army is most consistent?
« on: April 22, 2017, 04:59:59 AM »
As a Tyranid, Blood Angel and Genestealer Cult player I have to say, none of my armies.  I mean, Genestealers have a big bonus, being able to charge from their Shadows rules, but it's a random roll, the very definition of inconsistent.  Granted, I haven't tried that army with my new dice that aren't ridiculously low rollers, but I had bad luck having my whole army Outflank for four turns of a game before I decided to just walk to where I needed to be.  When it works it friggin WORKS.  Having an 8pt model put out three Rending attacks at common Initiative NOT including the charge is a whole mess of death.  But, Allied Flyrants tend to be the workhorses of that list, taking care of the majority of the enemy that isn't as easy to Assault, which can be a let down depending on what you wanted out of the army.

The best and most consistent charges are always done by 12" movers with a Scout move for a 2nd Turn Charge.  Flesh Hounds in the KDK Gorepack, Dark Angel Ravenwing Knights, that sort of thing.  There's very little that has the speed and durability to cross the table outside of a transport and almost no transports with Assault Vehicle are quality enough to make it there either.  Dark Angels have both in droves, but they're not exactly what I'd call an Assault army, despite how good at it Ravenwing are.  To go for plain consistency in an actual Assault oriented shell, Khorne Daemonkin are prolly the best choice.  There's just a good feeling about Bloodthirsters in KDK that I don't get when I run Flyrants with GSC.

I haven't tried Death Guard Chosen, I use Slannesh Chosen loaded with power weapons, so I'm not wholly sure how that would go.  There's actually a few interactions there I've just never tried, so I'm not sure how they'd perform.  Issue number one is the Transport Capacity of a Land Raider.  You'd be down to Terminator Lord, three Terminators and a Warpsmith and then be full.  Chosen are smaller physically, but as a unit they end up more expensive to survive the same and deal the same damage.

I do agree though of Melta being fluffier, but there's plenty of cases of plasma in the hands of Nurgle units, though it's usually depicted as closer to goo guns than fiery plasma.  Chemical weapons are also popular in Death Guard but I don't think there's a good Codex based representation there.  I think that's just out of Forge World and won't help you here.  From a gameplay point of view, if Terminators are giving you trouble, having your swift units be able to harass them and Centurians is a good move.  And we can't forget how valuable Jink is against Grav. 

Grav is going to do serious work against and sadly there's nothing you can do about that.  Bypassing your added toughness with AP2, you have to hit them at long range or with the Vindicator and that's just not always possible.  Scatters happen but I think you should stick to the attempt.  When Vindicators work, they fill in a wide gap in the CSM Codex.

Terminator Lords suffer from not having good deliveries in CSM.  A Land Raider might be your only choice but that bumps that one unit to over 500pts alone.  That's a hard one to swing at any point level.  It's still fluffy, but it's rough because of what you have to sacrifice elsewhere.  Usually, because I also run a Land Raider, I'll sacrifice a basic CSM squad and make them bog standard minimum squad, leave them at an Objective and just forget about their existence.  Leaves some points for the Raider and unit inside it.  But you'll have to bump up to 1850 for that, or go CAD with Cultists as Troops and a lot of trimming on decent units.

Bikes are without a doubt better than Raptors, just less fluffy.  If you make that move, having T6 bikers is a pure gameplay direction.  This can also free your CSM squad from needing their Melta.  I'd consider Plasma instead for the basic squads, make use of that FNP and give Terminators something to worry about.  But on the other hand, the Bikes also have FNP and might benefit just as much from the Plasma.  I'm running Melta because that's what I'm used to, but Plasma is a good move either way if you're comfortable with your anti-tank as it is.

You're going to be consistently outnumbered when playing Chaos.  CSM pay a lot of points for not a lot of models and you're trying to fit a Decurion at a low points cost so having to pay for tax units is a hit.  What did you find not pulling their weight?  What did you wish you had but didn't?  What did your opponent bring that seemed like it was walking through what you had or just wouldn't go down?

Eight Bolter shots and either an Assault Cannon or Cyclone have a good place in an army as a fighting force in and of itself and can be supported by other things very smoothly.  The idea isn't to tie up a unit and prevent other shots on later turns, which is always a risk when Assaulting, but rather to hem something in with the full army, hitting it simultaneously with another unit or just keeping something in a good position to get shot. 

Hammers and Claws make one of the best bully units in the game, and because of that, they rarely make their points back because their targets are usually weaker than they are.  Standard Terminators have that variable role that means while they still won't make their points back, they can do something else modestly while accomplishing a non-kill point oriented goal.  Assault Terminators are sitting around with their claws up their backsides if they're not actively in a combat.

Yes, that would be a good list.  Only, and I do mean only, issue in the list is the Sigil on the Lord.  Not needed since the Terminator armor gives a 5++.  Use the points for Dozer Blades or a Seige Shield on the Vindicator and you're golden.

So if Death Guard drew you into making an army, why aren't you making a Death Guard army?  Nothing in this list says 'Death Guard' who are notoriously a very walking heavy army utilizing bigger Infantry types.  Centurions are there, but that's the only thing that Death Guard would actually bother with traditionally.  Where's your Terminators, who Death Guard are VERY fond of.

Death Guard out of CSM are in a good place right now, finally able to represent that Heavy Infantry group with natural FNP and Relentless on every Infantry model, making Havocs and even basic squads viable, with Plagues being an afterthought instead of the bread and butter.  You can make a good army out of models that don't look all sickly and paint them up as Loyalist Death Guard using traitor rules.

Or, you can actually use 30k concepts.  You can't legally use a 30k army in 40k, and usually you wouldn't want to, but you can take some heavy inspiration from how an army would be built where Loyalist Death Guard are actually a thing.  For instance, the Death Guard have a Rite of War specific to them, intended to be fluffy and restrictive.  It says that an army may only choose one Fast Attack slot.  So, some interpretation just means that you severely limit your FA ideas.  No flyers and limit your quicker vehicles.  Big lumbering things like Vindicators have more of a place than Bikes would, but Demi-Company demands are a thing you might have to break fluff for.  Other restrictions in that Rite of War are no Running and no Deep Strike, and while the running is whatever, no Deep Strike should be followed if you were trying to emulate what they do in 30k.  Skyhammer is absolutely not a Death Guard style.  Land Speeders are not Death Guard style. 

But with 30k rules spilling over in some cases, Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators would be right at home.  Dropping the Demi-Company in favor of a CAD and enforcing some of these restrictions yourself means you could make something very fluffy for pre-Heresy Death Guard and at some point play 30k with most of the same army.  Cataphractii are huge in Death Guard in particular with the CSM Character Typhus, Typhon back in Heresy days, having what might be the first example of the armor shown in the game. 

While there's not a whole lot wrong with the army you put forward, it would prolly do okay on the table, it just doesn't look like a Death Guard army to me.  80% of an actual Death Guard army is available in 40k, and I'd try to use as much of it as possible.  They make some really cool armies on the table.

Discussion: 40K Rumors / Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« on: April 09, 2017, 03:43:01 PM »
Nearly every Assault based army but Orks gets shafted with this idea.  Just off the top of my head are Blood Angel Baal Strikeforces, who are put into a Detachment to get a +1 Initiative on the charge that is now useless.  Or Genestealers, who are paying points per model for their I6 and getting no benefit.  Weapon based Initiative bonuses, Metamorph and Lash Whips are useless.  In Cult armies, there'd be no reason to take anything but Acolytes if the only thing that matters is who gets the charge.  Why pay 14pts when I can pay 8pts for the same three Rending attacks.

40K Rules Questions / Re: 30k Vehicles for 40k Chaos Armies?
« on: April 03, 2017, 09:35:20 PM »
You are looking for IA:13 if you want to use them as CSM.  IA:2 if you want to use loyalist armies.  Both are books from Forgeworld and they have additional rules in 40k for being relic tanks, but you can work with them.

Upgrades.  There are certain armies where taking just a big standard unit is fine but CSM isn't one of them.  But when I say there's not much to help with, that's because there's no meat yet.  With a Chaos Lord you can build him to be a Biker Lord of Nurgle with T6, S8 attacks at AP2, as much durability as is possible and just turn him into a beefy beatstick you shove down your opponent's threat.  Or maybe a fancy pants duelist with Mark of Slannesh and the Spineshiver blade to maximize damage in Challenges and buff up from Boons.  Or a bodyguard for Abbadon in Terminator gear.  Or maybe you just want him in some CSM squad and he's a tax unit to unlock the Detachment.

The squads are all the same.  Do you want them to kill vehicles or do you want them to kill infantry or do you want them to take Objectives or are they also just tax.  The amount of directions you can go are practically infinite, so you have to have a game plan on what you want them to do.  There are optimized builds for each unit, but that depends on what their role in your army is.  Decide what you want Squad whichever to do and we can work from there.

Looking more into Black Legion themselves, you are missing another bit.  The full Detachment you're using is the Black Legion Speartip, so you're going to need more Terminators, one unit for Abbadon, one unit for the Warband or you can go Chosen if you prefer.  You also need to include an Auxillary choice.  Warband is Core, Bringers is Command, you need 1+ choice of an Auxillary Formation from that list.  Spawn is the cheapest, but there are plenty of better ones.  This won't be an army at 1000pts, so you can expand to 1500 or more with this game plan.

Remember that you want mobility, firepower and durability in equal measure.  That means transports for guys that can't Deep Strike, a swift and powerful group of shots from the guys that do and the ability to move around the battlefield as the battle progresses.

You've got nothing here though.  All your guys are naked.  There's no weapon options anywhere for any of the units.  I suggest you fix that first and foremost.  This isn't an army, it's just Abbadon leading guys...  You have to add options to make them actually accomplish anything on the table.  You can take this too many ways for me to suggest loadouts since many of these units can be set up in a host of ways. You have to have a coherent idea of what each unit wants to get done before and that will guide you in how to set them up with weapons and numbers.

You've set up your army wrong.  The Terminators in Bringers of Despair are not the Terminators in your CAD.  They have to be in the Bringers of Despair Formation, and units can't belong to more than one Detachment.  It's an easy fix, just remove their listing from the units up top and only have them in the Bringers of Despair.  I'd also just make your CAD into Black Legion for the free VotLW, just cause.  There's no downside and it gives you alternate Troops to consider.

Discussion: THE LIST / Re: My first 1850pt list - Space Marine
« on: April 03, 2017, 02:26:55 AM »
You have a good amount of damage going down, but you have some issues with how this list will perform.  You have only one issue with how the army is set up though.  You have taken an army where every Detachment is a Formation.  There's nothing wrong with that.  You can do all of this, but the question is should you.  What you can't do is take the Nocturne's Fury.  That's a Special Weapon replacement only, and Librarians do not have access to that list.

You have no real point takers here.  Yes, you can deploy a few inches forward, which is all you'll get when the opponent sees that many Scouts, they'll line up so they have Line of Sight to anywhere good for you to hide in and force you 18" away.  Then Scout moves happen to make up for some of the lost ground.  But, now you're up there and any enemy unit with Objective Secured just needs to walk right up and flip you off while they take control of the Objective.  Your librarians are not going to be able to be everywhere, and firing the TFCs at them risks your own unit.  All your opponent has to do is charge your Scouts and they'll likely be in range to steal it right out from under you.

Your Librarians are a LOT of points in a three man unit...  I see the attempt, but they are good at one thing.  Assault.  That's an easy solution.  Just blast them off the table and then I can focus on the next threat.  Against a Drop Pod army, you'll suffer horribly.  You've focused to hard on poor Scouts and the Snowflake Libbys to bring a weighty force.  I wouldn't change the Armored Task Force, I think that's a good center hammer to work with and the Conversion Beamer is a nice touch, but I'd swap down to a CAD and take some more traditional speed instead of going all in on Scouts.  A Bike Captain with Drake Smitter and Bike squad alongside a single Librarian with the Tome and two or three CAD Scout squads would be a big improvement.  Buff up your squads with real holding power and give your Characters some guys around them.  Keeps your theme but will improve what you do with it.

If you want to go a bit more cutthroat with it, the Missiles on the Scouts is pretty useless.  Missiles had their day and nothing in the air is scared of S7 AP4 in so little numbers anymore.  Unless you have a specific opponent who is not using Heldrakes or Flyrants but is using a different Flyer, it's not worth the points.  Heavy Bolters would make more sense and let them focus on their role.  Four TFCs is overkill.  You can cut that down to two if needed but three is plenty.  Save the points, again.  If something ain't dead to three, it ain't going to die to four and you need to use a bigger gun.  Salamanders, while cool, are not utilized here as much as Iron Hands would be.  Iron Hands would be my choice.

No because they are outside of the amalgam called 'Battle Company'.  They're playing it a bit fast and loose with the terms by renaming what is two Formations stuck together, but it still follows the basic principles beyond that.  If something is not in the Formation named, it doesn't interact with it in any way outside of the Allies chart. It's a trickle down system only.

40K Rules Questions / Re: Winning conditions.
« on: March 25, 2017, 02:36:58 PM »
Just after the bit where it shows what the three Deployment types are, there's a section on Victory Conditions.  The rules you want are in Sudden Death Conditions.  To answer directly, Reserves are not models on the table and you will lose if all you have are models in Reserve and nothing out.

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