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Discussion: THE LIST / Re: 2000 point Tyranids Hive fleet Behemoth+Kronos
« Last post by bumbleb1492 on November 21, 2017, 07:03:04 PM »
I've been rolling some dice and you're right they do delete armies and units off the table. The problem is finding room in the list. What would you suggest taking out for 6 hive guard?

Without knowing the specifics of your army comp, I cant really provide any analysis. I can say that scouts are not scary, and neither guard inf or 1 conscript squad. Devs could be a threat if they carry missiles, but without know how many you have I can't really know.

What I would generally say is that I would rush up the board, screening my plas sqds with the THs. I would ignore your scouts, only pop shots. I would charge the bubble wrap purposely to create openings. I do think this is possible only because I can sustain a 3+. So unless you can demonstrate that you have enough dice to overwhelm, I have no other recourse but to say okay. I am glad to have now two people say that it is definitively not OP.

All of that being said, the preempting scout is a great idea.
Discussion: Chaos Space Marines / Re: Khorne Lord of Skulls
« Last post by kismo on November 21, 2017, 06:11:02 PM »
I have seen him used with daemonforge stratagem.
Nice but a lot of points  ;D
I am going to respond with each of your points enumerated so as to provide us with the best ability of response.
1. I want to see the Space Marine army that can "get the entire army in your opponents on T1", ranged or otherwise. Most maps, if designed well, deny each army the full use of the ranged at any point, much more for T1. What this army has, is the ability to drop half of its troops, usually the thunder-hammers, anywhere on the board on any turn It wants, including T1.

2. I know that the range of the pistols is short, specifically within the distance of being charged, but that is precisely what this army is about. Vanguard have 2 attacks base. By adding pistols, the army is adding to their melee abilities. The plasma squads attack a total of 36 times in a turn. More than that, by wanting to charge in, It get's the added distance from charging avg ~7". It would obliterate what an opponent would use as the bait for the kiting, which is not how that strategy works.

3. The purpose of the storm shields are to increase point depreciation. Already by taking pure 1W infantry, the army has made multi-wound weapons pointless. This means that the points put into them are depreciated. The storm shields now also deny AP in terms of value. It's as if before the game started, the opponent decided to play with 1700pts rather than the full 2000. All that matters is volume.

4. Volume of dice is a threat to this army, you are correct. I argue that massed dice is a threat to all armies. This army's inclusion in that does not reduce Its power in general. That would be like saying that smite spam armies aren't worth their salt because they are vulnerable to smite spam. More to the point, I would contend that most armies are not built specifically to counter infantry; to which, I would direct you to point three. Now, there is the problem specifically of "green tide" orc play, which is a common ploy of orc players. Massed dice in melee is probably the second greatest threat to this army, outside of the obvious smite spam. That being said, orc players are about as common as drop pods in 8th. Also, the orc would be facing a melee powerhouse as well, so it would come down to how well the dice fall on the pistol work and I can trust those odds.

4b. I should add that most massed dice armies are centered around shooting, not melee. That means that if this army can drop and envelop into melee, It denies most opponents the possibility to bring their counter to the board. Also, in a more abstract concept, most of the shooty armies require to be stationary to be most effective. In other words, if the opponent "castles", then this army takes the field and wins by objectives. If they spread out to take the field, they lose more and more effectiveness at target firing any one of my squads.

5. I was playing with my actual squad of vanguard in a game. It faced down a helldrake, a chaos dread in melee, and two 5 man tactical squads with plasma guns at half distance. It took the the combined fire of all of that for three turns to take down the 5 storm shielded members I had. I was rolling hot, I wont deny it, but a 3+ doesn't need that hot to roll. The point of this story is that 3+ Svs are awesome.

6. Your "finally" point is based on the assumption that I don't want to be charged, or more to the point, that this army wouldn't charge. Nor does it consider that I can drop squads anywhere I want to engage those tougher units or even distract those chaff squads. I have essentially 7 working parts, plus characters. That is a lot of maneuver units.

7. This army does not "need" to overcharge. Most targets have 1W. The targets that have more Ws will not take many volleys of 15 pistols at 7S, -3AP. Overcharge is for extreme necessity, like taking down Magnus, or a Repulsor.

7b. Tactical Marines are not cheap enough, and can not take 15 plasma per squad.

8. Any stationary squads are sitting ducks to drops because the army has everything running up the field toward obj.s and enemy squads, not protecting glass cannons. To be honest, my real army is Dev.s, Aggressors, and vanguard with an emphasis on the Devs. This is a purely hypothetical army.

9. Bikes do not have the numbers to make the plan work. Vang are 18pts with jump, bikes are 21. So, for every 10 Vang ~ 9 bikes. Would you rather shoot 9 meltas or 15 plasma? As to the twin bolters, which would you rather, 18 S4, AP0 shots or 15 S7, AP-3 shots? Yes at half distance you would have 36 shots, but I get my 15 in melee and an added 21 melee attacks. So it all evens out. (The equipment balance out as a melta is ~ a plas pistol and storm shield.) Also, bikes can not take storm shields. Company Veterans can, but they are extremely expensive. The added T and W is not as valuable as the permanent 3+ Sv. Also, jump gives the FLY keyword that allows me to fall back and still shoot without taking Ultra as my tactics. Bikes cant.

10. I did think about taking a LT as I would not be using overcharge very much. That being said, re-roll 1s for wounds is not that necessary for S7 weapons. Overall, it is a take or leave. The army is the same either way.

I do appreciate your comment. Thank you.
Discussion: Eldar / Re: The Mattler's Mathhammer (8th): Aeldari Heavy Weapons
« Last post by The Mattler on November 21, 2017, 01:58:00 PM »
I added a table in the appendix to compare the common heavy weapons with Dark Reapers and Fire Prisms using Linked Fire.  Enjoy!
The tournament list I've been running (guard with raven guard) already takes an army like yours (in-yo-face by deep strike) into account. I bring 3 scout squads to prevent deep strikes anywhere near my main lines. Then behind that I can deploy a couple of guard infantry squads and a conscript squad. All before you get close to the devastators who provide the real firepower. I'd recommend you get your own scout squad, to claim a plot of land in the midfield before your opponent blocks you from deep striking near anything but their outer-most layer of bubble wrap. Scions can get close to your characters unless you're really cautious. So I don't view your army as particularly dangerous.

I too would recommend a lieutenant over another captain.
Discussion: Eldar / Re: Ynnari Strategies Post Nerf
« Last post by Rob40k on November 20, 2017, 10:02:42 PM »
soulburst was easily abused. so it was "fixed.

Eldar are still a power house codex without it, soulburst just made it better.

Even with the nerf this weekend alone I was playing to win a tournament and a big event here in the UK was also very Ynnari heavy towards the top tables, with the eventual winner being Ynnari and had 9 Ynnari armies in the top 20.

as for stratagies. Build soulburst around 1 unit. I took a unit of 10 Dark reapers, so they could make use of Yvraines psychic soul burst and they worked a treat.
Discussion: Eldar / Re: NEW FAQ & YNNARI NERF
« Last post by Rob40k on November 20, 2017, 09:54:19 PM »
still worth taking a Ynnari detachment.

finished 2nd at a tournament using the new faq (talk about a last minute change!!)

In the end I didn't change lists, just dropped the Ynnari in one detachment.

It's still useful to some degree, a nice 10man unit of Dark Reapers benefit from Ynnari powers from Yvraine.
Discussion: Eldar / Re: The Mattler's Mathhammer (8th): Aeldari Heavy Weapons
« Last post by Odras on November 20, 2017, 08:55:33 PM »
This table is here mainly to demonstrate a principle that new players sometimes have trouble understanding: cost and durability are inversely proportional to one another.
Yes, the number of times I have had to explain this.

Great post, hopefully I will have a chance to do some more soon when I get some time off work.
Discussion: Eldar / Re: Ynnari Strategies Post Nerf
« Last post by Odras on November 20, 2017, 08:16:19 PM »
During 7th edition, at a large tournament (AdeptiCon), the following issue arose due to the mechanical instability inherent in the SfD/Soulburst rules: During DEPLOYMENT (so, pre-game), a Genestealer Cult unit deploying in accordance with its quirky rules destroyed an Ynnari unit that was within 7" of a Wraithknight. The Ynnari player wanted to Charge during which point the game breaks. I suppose you don't have to arrive at the same conclusion that I arrived at, which is that SfD/Soulburst was not properly described (parameters/limitations/triggers/conditionals) as written.

I agree, in 7th edition it was fairly unclear, and even in 8th edition at first it was unclear. Pre-nerf 8th edition though, I thought  it was actually very clear when you got to soulburst and what you got to do. The only people that had problems were those that hadn't read the rules properly. Admittedly you did have to go to about 3 different places to get all those rules, but they were there and it was quite clear.

To me this is not a justification for the nerf even if it was very unclear. It could be fixed with some clarification, which is what they have done since 8th edition launched.
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