Author Topic: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.  (Read 5323 times)

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Offline Bearded Beheader

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Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« on: November 28, 2013, 07:29:11 AM »
I played in a massive tourney this past weekend and while it was fun, it also totally sucked. There were 69 people, and the top 16 winners on day 1, went to play a GT tourney on day two. While the rest of the people played in a regular RT tourney on day 2.

My biggest complaint about the tourney scene is the army list building. With the lack of an Army composition score, I saw a guy with 5 Riptides, a bunch of Crisis Suits, Drones, and 2 small units of Kroot as troops. Then there was the Taudar lists that seem to have gotten more insane. Like the guy who had two Wraithknights, a Riptide, 10 Dark Reapers, two units of 3 Jetbikes, and a unit of Kroot!! And to top it off, there was the 3 Helldrakes, allied with 3 Necron fliers, which also had Wraiths, a chaos lord, with two units of cultists as troops. I called this dude out for his list after the game, and he told me that he spent the money on it. Is this the mentality know?

Is there a way for us to participate in tourneys with balanced themed armies, or do we need to just suck it up and build the bastard lists to even have a chance to win?

Online Fritz40K

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2013, 12:58:32 PM »
I think this totally depends on the culture of the tournament....

Some of the bigger tournaments are well, very WACC (win at all costs) focused, and unless you are bringing lists like you describe you might as well not bother to show up. Sadly more then a few of the bigger tournaments I used to attend have gone this way.

Many 40K tournies were kind of like this, but never this bad due to the potential abuse of allies and codex supplements.

Alternatives?

Less WAAC focused tournaments?

Small point tournaments like combat patrol and kill tems which can't be exploited on the list alone?

Narrative events and tournaments, which more and more in 6th edition seems like the way to go to have fun.

Either by accident or design by GW.

Offline Breng77

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2013, 11:58:41 AM »
I think a big portion of this is what your expectation is going in.....

Can you expect to win a tournament bringing a sub optimal list.  Probably not, whether that is unfortunate is in the eye of the beholder (it has been true for a long time now), I'm not sure that you should be able to compete with any old list you bring (though I wish GW would balance the game so that at least every codex could compete.)
Though I fervently disagree with the notion that if you don't want to bring those lists that you might as well not show up.  This is only good reasoning if the reason you attend tournaments is to win.  Personally I go to play multiple games against opponents I don't often get to face.  With this attitude if you lose a game to one of these lists but get to play other players latter you still have fun.

I'm not sure though that comp scores end up helping much in the end they can move the bar but strong builds will still exist.

Where they can help though is by curbing some of the more broken combos in the game that simply make for boring games.

You need to take care though in your Comp...a recent comp event in the US had a system that made the most broken army in the game more broken....hardly something desirable and as such you saw more people run that build.

As for options

1.) Run your own event....if you can...if you want to change you need to be the guy doing the changing (or at least trying) most TOs are not going to risk their wallets to change things unless there is a big push back by attendees.  Make the changes you think are needed and run with it.

2.) Find comped events if that is what you are looking for.


There is everyway to participate in tournaments with Themed lists just very little chance of winning them...unless your theme is Tzeentch Daemons, Saim hann eldar, Tau of many varieties.

  So if you want to win an event the answer is yes you need to bring a hard core list but this has been true for years.


As for a cool fix I came up with was the following

HQ <= 25% minimum 1 HQ
Troops >= 25%
Elites <=25%
Fast <= 25%
Heavy <= 25%
an additional 10% may be distributed amongst Fast, Heavy, and Elites.
Dedicated Transports <=25%

At 2000 points or less no more than 3 of any one Elite, Fast, Heavy unit may be chosen. 1 Additional Duplicate may be added for every 500 points in excess of 2000 points (2001-2500 4, 2501 -3000 5 etc.).

This system fixes quite a few of the "broken builds" available out there.

Just looking at your list of Bad armies

No 5 Riptide list would be available until well above 2k points
No 3 Heldrakes + wraiths
No 2 Wraithknights + Dark reapers

Hard core lists will still be around, just a bit toned down....but that is part of tournament play and has been for a long while.  (if you want to diminish even more drop the 10% flex in the Fast, Heavy, Elite slots)





Offline Bearded Beheader

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2013, 06:21:07 PM »
The solution that me an my club came up with is the host our own tourney. We are thinking about 20 people, since this is how much terrain and tables we can muster. I'll keep you guys informed.

Offline Breng77

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2013, 08:16:27 PM »
That really is the way to go then put I place a system that creates the environment you wish to play in...and if enough people enjoy it run with it.

Offline Skari

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2013, 06:02:11 AM »
I think its a tournament. And tournaments are there to showcase the win-loss. But if you go to a campaign or narrative event then beardy blokes should be punished.
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Offline Breng77

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2013, 07:48:10 AM »
Except that in reality Tournaments are there to provide a fun day (or more) of gaming for the attendees....Now if they enjoy beating face/getting beaten...that is ok as long as every attendee is on the same page.  If they desire comp of some kind, it is still a tournament...just a comped one.

Offline embolden

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2013, 12:47:21 AM »
I've been to a number of tournaments and only had one bad game/opponent, win lose draw I've had massive amounts of fun and get a lot of enjoyment about trying to beat the top players and top lists.

I don't see the need to moan about other peoples list, I mean if it's legal, take it, is my opinion, I shouldn't be projecting my opinions on whats fun or not on to others who want to take a certain list, just because "I" don't like it or think it's cheesey, it's their hobby as well.

If people don't like non comped events and moan about people who are taking the most pts efficient list when they are free to do so, then why go to such an event if you're not going to enjoy playing against the best lists? If its a tournament, people are going to go to win the event.
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Offline Breng77

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2013, 07:52:30 AM »
And that is your opinion...that people should just "deal with", getting curb stomped...except they don't as you say, they can "not attend"  so when a majority or players indicate they are not having fun and don't show up the tournament dies....

This idea that every tournament must allow everything is silly.  Some certainly may do so...others might not...essentially it comes down to providing the best experience for the most paying customers...that way the TO does not end up with no event, and losing a bunch of money.

Offline embolden

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2014, 05:43:52 AM »
And that is your opinion...that people should just "deal with", getting curb stomped...except they don't as you say, they can "not attend"  so when a majority or players indicate they are not having fun and don't show up the tournament dies....


If you don't want to get "curb stomped", go play some kids at the local gaming store.

Comp'd events just move the goal posts, any comp does, no matter how small the comp is.

Yes, "deal with it" if you don't like the comp or lack of, don't attend, you cannot expect people to not take the most competitive legal armies at a competitive tournament, thats just silly thinking, pick your tournaments, if you want to play in a heavily comp'd event that stops the most competitive armies, then go to that event or host your own. I bet there will still be armies/players that will "curb stomp" others at that heavily comp'd event... thats the nature of 40k I'm afraid, Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Edit:

Just had a play around with a couple of lists in the comp you've posted in the other thread, you can still easily run a Draigowing within those confines...

Draigo, Coteaz, 10 Paladins + 1 Paladin + 2 Dreadknights 1600pts... I'm no list building expert either, so its easy to break comp, like I said above, it just moves the goal posts.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 09:11:37 AM by embolden »
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Offline Breng77

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2014, 09:57:38 AM »
Draigowing is hardly broken by any standard in the current game...and never really was unless it could abuse the kill point mechanic at some events.

I'm not necessarily for comp but events need to make it possible for a majority of players to enjoy themselves...or they will fail.

Whether it is through mission design or Comp, something that makes it possible for a game to be interactive is necessary.

The attitude that if you don't like getting beaten in a one sided fashion, then don't show up is a flawed argument from the stand point of running events.

Essentially if your comp reigns in the most abusive builds then even though power builds still exist...the battles are not as onesided.

All that said I am currently considering more changes in mission rather than comp (beyond banning lots of the new stuff.) simply because it is less negative.

However, that does not mean an environment that is totally unbalanced is healthy for competitive play.


Offline DAG42

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2014, 05:52:02 PM »
I and a lot of my friends here locally stopped playing the tournies because of the WACC. 1 it brings out the cheaters and the rules judges can be , shall we say less than honorable. Particularly if it's their buddies in question. I have seen a big drop in stores events sign ups because people are tired of it.

Offline Kezef

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2014, 09:34:18 PM »
I went to a local tourney recently, there was 7 tables and 16 people, looking over the armies, they were practically all clones of each other, tau/eldar. I was like well this is 40k these days? wheres the space marines and other armies, that really discouraged me, considering the last tourney I went to was in 4th, and with the same people the armies covered the range of the game.

Offline grimgunman

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2014, 12:17:28 AM »
This wouldn't be so much of a problem if the codex writers playtested their codex more so there wouldn't be so much external imbalance. The codexes are waaay too far apart in power levels, there should not be so many codexes that are unplayable in tournaments. It is such a shame because I love competing in 40k, but because of the allies and the larger margins in power level, it has become impossible for normal lists to compete without getting absolutely destroyed...

Offline DAG42

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2014, 08:01:19 AM »
I agree on the codex issue, but there are to many waac mentality players that truly take fun out of the game.