Author Topic: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.  (Read 5678 times)

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Offline Breng77

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2014, 10:05:52 AM »
We really need to stop blaming the players in this.  GW wrote the rules (and assuming the players you are refering to are not Cheating) and if someone playing within the rules is stomping people that is the fault of GW.

Essentially it works like this at a competition most people are trying to win.  So if there is a powerful option available someone will take it.  In response others are going to take the same (or other) powerful options etc.

The state of the game is the fault of GW, when you look at the sheer imbalance of Codices released just during 6th ed. Tau and Eldar are a large bit stronger than most other armies.  Daemons is probably an acceptable notch below (when running broken combos).  SM are pretty balanced as are Dark Angels.  CSM and Nids are both really not that great as books.  CSM is better because Heldrakes exist....but Heldrakes also hurt the Marine Armies in the Meta.

It really kind of sucks when players catch crap for playing their army within the rules of the game.  Situations should not exist where playing an army causes such imbalances as for this to be the case.

Offline bruenor316

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2014, 08:23:41 PM »
Last segment of 11th Co's Episode 188 http://traffic.libsyn.com/the11thcompany/episodeonehundredeightyeightfinal.mp3 deals with this in a pretty entertaining and honest fashion.  Also, it deals w/the WAAC v Competitive differences quite succinctly (tl;dr - WAAC are bullies and don't last long in tournies when they show up; competitive will break a book/army, build the powerlist/s, and move on <hopefully explaining what the frak they just did and how to counter it>).

Offline Ramses135

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2014, 03:33:14 AM »
Last segment of 11th Co's Episode 188 http://traffic.libsyn.com/the11thcompany/episodeonehundredeightyeightfinal.mp3 deals with this in a pretty entertaining and honest fashion.  Also, it deals w/the WAAC v Competitive differences quite succinctly (tl;dr - WAAC are bullies and don't last long in tournies when they show up; competitive will break a book/army, build the powerlist/s, and move on <hopefully explaining what the frak they just did and how to counter it>).

Yeah, somehow needed to say this - WAAC and competitive is NOT the same, not at all.

We really need to stop blaming the players in this.  GW wrote the rules (and assuming the players you are refering to are not Cheating) and if someone playing within the rules is stomping people that is the fault of GW.

Essentially it works like this at a competition most people are trying to win.  So if there is a powerful option available someone will take it.  In response others are going to take the same (or other) powerful options etc.

The state of the game is the fault of GW, when you look at the sheer imbalance of Codices released just during 6th ed. Tau and Eldar are a large bit stronger than most other armies.  Daemons is probably an acceptable notch below (when running broken combos).  SM are pretty balanced as are Dark Angels.  CSM and Nids are both really not that great as books.  CSM is better because Heldrakes exist....but Heldrakes also hurt the Marine Armies in the Meta.

It really kind of sucks when players catch crap for playing their army within the rules of the game.  Situations should not exist where playing an army causes such imbalances as for this to be the case.

I agree with this. It's all GW's fault, we all know it, but have to live with that. I have a minor complain about your evaluation of strenght of the 6e codexes (you ever played 1850 pts  CSM with three Helldrakes, three Land Raiders and two IG Vendettas? Crazy! Nids will soon find their combos - some of them already started. And so far, before GW issues a FAQ, the Grav Gun technology of Space Marines seems to be a little too much) , but otherwise, you are right.

As for the original rant - it's sad, but if you go to a big tournament, you have to show with a cheese list, that's how it works. If you don't like it, you have to attend to smaller events, which restrict some choices, or narrative events. From the definition, tournament is: "a competition involving a relatively large number of competitors, all participating in a sport or game"

If there is no competition, it is no tournament. If there is competition, there is contest between participants. And contest leads to cheese, as even small advantage can help you in the long run and there will always be someone, who will try to get this advantage. That's basically evolution (the strong survive!), even if we hate it.

Comp events? The problem is, they basically just deform the metagame, imho - ban some choices and suddenly other choices, which were previously underwhelming (as they were countered by the superior ones) will dominate, so no solution found.

The game right now is not in some terrible bad shape, imho. Yeah, we all ignore Escalation and Stronghold Assault and behave, like if there is no such thing. We ignore dataslates. And if there be a really small adjustment to Tau and Eldar, it would be great - but the main problem is, where it will stop? Suddenly someone will say "Draigowing is cheese". In my opinion, it is not and never was (as I played against it few times), but some people may think otherwise. So, it's a dangerous road, imho.

That's why I believe that a personal solution is, not participating in large, competitive events.
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Offline Breng77

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2014, 05:44:10 AM »
The real solution is having reasonable expectations when you do go to events.  If you are not bringing one of the superpower codices....don't go in expecting to win.  I go to events expecting to compete...find my level after early games...and have fun.  I try to win more games than I lose etc.  I feel this is more important than anything.

Sorry CSM book is really not good.  Heldrakes are good...but the list you posted does not really scare me much (to reliant on reserves), and Tau and Eldar can both Handle Drakes with little issue (Intercepting Broadside teams/Riptides with Sky fire and interceptor etc...Wave Serpents, and Seer councils for eldar.) and Grav guns are powerful against some things and terrible against others.  As a Daemon Player they don't worry me at all.

Like I said CSM are bad excepting Heldrakes by and large (there are some other decent units but nothing broken).  Put simply to me one good unit does not a good book make.  I also rarely see more than one allied Heldrake these days.  I will say though that Heldrakes are as bad for the Meta as Tau and Eldar, because they hamper builds that would otherwise be good.

Offline embolden

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2014, 11:23:15 AM »
Breng and Ramses both just pointed out what I've said before about competitive play and what peoples different interpretations are of it:

I agree with this. It's all GW's fault, we all know it, but have to live with that. I have a minor complain about your evaluation of strenght of the 6e codexes (you ever played 1850 pts  CSM with three Helldrakes, three Land Raiders and two IG Vendettas? Crazy! Nids will soon find their combos - some of them already started. And so far, before GW issues a FAQ, the Grav Gun technology of Space Marines seems to be a little too much) , but otherwise, you are right.

Sorry CSM book is really not good.  Heldrakes are good...but the list you posted does not really scare me much (to reliant on reserves), and Tau and Eldar can both Handle Drakes with little issue (Intercepting Broadside teams/Riptides with Sky fire and interceptor etc...Wave Serpents, and Seer councils for eldar.) and Grav guns are powerful against some things and terrible against others.  As a Daemon Player they don't worry me at all.

Draigowing was just an example of what some people called cheese because they didnít have the tools to deal with so many 2+ saves, people just laugh at Dragiowing now, 2+ save lol, try 2+ re-rollable invulnerable savesÖ ;)

Peoples interpretations of whats competitive, cheesey, etc are and will always be different from others, Grav Guns, donít bother my Beastpack, but I bet they bother Ovesa Riptide lists, if we were to ask whats the worst they could face at present I bet they would give totally different examples of lists.

Like Ramses, I think the game is in a fairly healthy shape, the 40k tournament scene in the UK just had itís biggest attendance under 6th edition rules (capacity was capped, so could have been even more!). I also agree with what Breng said, about managing expectations, if youíre looking to win the event, you have to have a top list or list that beats the meta. At the tournament at the weekend just gone the top table last game was Drop Pod Wolves with triple Jaws V a Grey Knight 3 Storm Raven, 3 Dreadknight list, both were designed to hit and take out the top meta armies and they did, obviously.  But if you want to play for fun, in a swiss system, by round 2 or 3, you should be facing other armies/players that are their for fun.
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Offline Ramses135

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2014, 02:37:57 AM »

...

Draigowing was just an example of what some people called cheese because they didnít have the tools to deal with so many 2+ saves, people just laugh at Dragiowing now, 2+ save lol, try 2+ re-rollable invulnerable savesÖ ;)

Peoples interpretations of whats competitive, cheesey, etc are and will always be different from others, Grav Guns, donít bother my Beastpack, but I bet they bother Ovesa Riptide lists, if we were to ask whats the worst they could face at present I bet they would give totally different examples of lists.

Like Ramses, I think the game is in a fairly healthy shape, the 40k tournament scene in the UK just had itís biggest attendance under 6th edition rules (capacity was capped, so could have been even more!). I also agree with what Breng said, about managing expectations, if youíre looking to win the event, you have to have a top list or list that beats the meta. At the tournament at the weekend just gone the top table last game was Drop Pod Wolves with triple Jaws V a Grey Knight 3 Storm Raven, 3 Dreadknight list, both were designed to hit and take out the top meta armies and they did, obviously.  But if you want to play for fun, in a swiss system, by round 2 or 3, you should be facing other armies/players that are their for fun.

Even when theGK codex was eirely new and shiny, Draigowing was not competitive enough. Yeah, some people complained, but it is my firm belief, that they lost their games against immortal Draigo and friends, because they tried to kill them - not to play the mission.

The WH40k scene here is also more live than ever, can't complain the game is dying, no way. And strangely, I have similar experience as Embolden - Drop Pod Space Wolves are making their appearance from time to time and they are doing really great. The three Land Raiders + Flyers list (which I would only few months ago dismiss as strange experiments) seem to do well on the tournaments as well, as for example Eldar do usually not have enough firepower to crack open this amount of AV14 quickly (t least not the typical Eldar builds I am seing on ou tournaments).  The game is still full of surprises.

One of the biggest tournaments in our country now officially allowed Imperial Armor (while strictly banning Escalation and Stronghold Assault), which brings even more options and shifts the metagame even more. For example, Imperial Guard players rejoice, as they already packed lots and lots of Sabre Defense Platforms into their armies and feel strong enough to face the firepower of Eldar... eh, we'll see. 

So nay, the sky is not falling.
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Offline Kayreios

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2014, 06:49:14 AM »
Ha, you are worried that this is happening at your RT.  I can't even get a basement game in without facing these lists... And the ones you list aren't even that bad, I could roll 5 riptides any day.  When I see lists like this I just laugh and am thankful that I am not seeing 180 guard.

Offline Breng77

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Re: Tourneys these days are full of beardy blokes.
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2014, 09:39:48 AM »
again though that is all list dependent, I would rejoice facing 180 IG with my list, and not as much against the Riptides (not because I cannot beat them, just because my army eats hordes.)

Draigo was only really an issue in KP missions where it became table or lose for the opponent, and many tournaments had KPs as part of every game...so it made the list powerful.  Playing the mission in KP against a list with like 5 KPs is a losing fight.