Author Topic: DCannon's 7th Ed Eldar Thread: August 18 Video BatRep Link Page 13!  (Read 61475 times)

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Online DCannon4Life

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I have a couple of thoughts on the codex:

1. The Warlock Conclave tax on the Windrider Host may be too much for me to pay, it should have been optional (as it is in both the Battlehost and Stormhost). The Farseer isn't forced to join it (it isn't a Seer Council), but that leaves me with one Jetlock that cannot join another unit (not an independent character). Shred looks pretty good, but I'll probably field my bikes out of a CAD.
2. The Battlehost formation, minus the Taxvyper, is almost EXACTLY what I used to play. I look forward to fielding it again.
3. Unless there are more Formations than the ones I have access to, Craftworlds are not implemented in the game, just in the fluff. C'est la vie, but I was hoping to get some cool stuff. I will continue to make 'pew pew' noises and pretend my Craftworld is dedicated to recovering artifacts, no matter who they have to kill (and who they have to hire).
4. My Warwalkers will almost certainly be kitted out with EML. Flakk for THAT price? Saweet.
5. I will finish building my third Falcon/Fire Prism/Night Spinner chassis. I'm a big fan of zero-scatter deep strikes. The Fire Prism will not see the table, but the Night Spinner squadron looks like pure murder.
6. Running Dark Eldar as my Primary CAD for Webway Portals and Fast Attack Raiders to pair up with the Wraithhost formation makes me feel real, real dirty. Real dirty.
7. Being able to either take Dire Avengers in the Shrine OR the Aspect Host makes them extra special. The fact that they keep their, "Hmmm, do I overwatch at BS2 or get Counterattack and Stubborn?" rule is fantastic. They are vastly superior to their previous incarnation, clearly standing head-and-shoulders above mere Guardians.
8. I will gladly pay 50 points to field ONE Taxvyper carrying a pair of Shuriken Cannons. Good luck getting me to field more.
9. The Spirit Stone is ridiculous--unless I'm mistaken, it works on every power the Psyker attempts to manifest, not just once per turn.
10. I may get Trollface decals made for the backs of my Warp Spiders. RaW, they can Flickerjump EVERY TIME they are made the target of a shooting attack (as opposed to 'once per turn'). I no longer believe this to be true. Please see my post on Warp Spiders, here: http://thewarmaster.com/index.php?topic=5832.0
11. Wraithlords are S9 in combat with the Ghostglaive! POW!

I'll expand this list after I get the full codex (rather than the abbreviated one I have right now).

12. Oh yeah: 'Assured Destruction' for Fire Dragons!? Holy Moley that's +3 on the Pen chart! Everything they touch will blow up, and Super Heavy whatevers will cry salty tears of additional D3 Hull Points worth of damage....
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 09:30:33 PM by DCannon4Life »
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Online Izzycat218

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Re: Initial Thoughts on the New Codex
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2015, 04:02:50 PM »
So instead of scaling them down to the power level of everyone else they're more powerful now. If they're this powerful either everyone else is jumping in power when their book hits or Eldar may cause a hemorrhage of players slowly killing the game. I'm not screaming op just yet, have to see how they play. From the sounds of it playing my space marines is going to be rough.

Offline weidekuh

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Re: Initial Thoughts on the New Codex
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2015, 04:40:33 PM »
I hate the new codex.
Everyone will be ---ing because I play Eldar. Especially since I have 20 Wraithguards and -blades, 5 Wraithlords and 2 Wraithknights. I dedicated a lot of time to convert and paint my Wraithknights, because I love the model. They are my best painted models I own. Now I won't be able to field them, just because.

I love the new codex.
The new Aspect Warriors are sooo cool! Can't wait to play with my old metal Banshees and Scorpions. An all Aspect army should be viable and a lot of fun to play!

Offline ShadowcatX

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Re: Initial Thoughts on the New Codex
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2015, 05:00:26 PM »
Eldar may cause a hemorrhage of players slowly killing the game.

People have been saying that for years and years. Game hasn't died yet.
Everything I have ever told you, even this, is a lie.

Online Izzycat218

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Re: Initial Thoughts on the New Codex
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2015, 05:43:52 PM »
I mean at the local level more that the large scale. Just in the past year locally half of the guys have left for warmachine and hordes at one local store. The other store has all the budding players that are three to ten games in. As of now they already refused to play against Eldar now with the new levels of insanity there's a high chance of them quitting all together. Time will tell in the end. Considering my list that I'm in the middle of finishing just got made invalid with the sikitari dex and now the D-spam. Excitement for the game has diminished. I'll do the best I can with what I got I just hope not to be tabled every game by turn 3. Though the Are marines worth it thread may need to be revisited lol.

Online mcphro

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Re: Initial Thoughts on the New Codex
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2015, 06:10:05 PM »
I personally like a lot of the changes around units that have occurred. they have answered eldar Issues that have been asked for so long...

1. "Eldar have been around for ages, why are aspects the same stats as gaurdians" - They could have left Guardiands at BS 3/ WS 3 and Aspects at BS/WS 4 and that probably would have been ok. The fact they are one more is WOW if you take the formation (and why wouldnt you). So even a BS WS 5 of 5 would mean it reflects the dedicated training of a character that has spent hundreds of years as the aspect before moving onto another. ... saying that a BS of 5 means hitting on 2's so is that fair? Well its only aspects affected like that, not war walkers, vehicles etc

2. I think the skyfire option on missiles should maybe be an upgrade every army should get, or they all should have to pay for it for EML. Great option, but unless every other army gets it we will hear the RAGE. Why take fliers against Eldar when they can hit you on 3's

3. If Destroyer weapons were toned down to Str 10 AP 1 Id have less issues with Anything with Str D. Otherwise I think alot of the RAGE is fair enough.

4. If the rest of the Armies get the "Eldar and Necron Treatment" the game will be very interesting and exciting. If they dont, they have just wrecked the game for Eldar players at least. The meta game stats will come out later and it will show the top armies winning Tournaments will mostly be Eldar - and it wont be based on skill. Is this a fair comment that I just made - I really dont know. But player skill should be involved and I hope it doesnt just let a 10 yr old take the table top and table an "experienced" player just because all they needed to do was roll some dice.

5. So excited to run Footdar in some way. Im not focused too much on vehicles atm, but the idea of lots of small units appeals to me. The more small units you run the harder it is to knock you down. A jetbike guadian host with a full aspect army with the Avatar is probably what I will try to run first. The avatar will die, but people will be happy with the eldar meta change in that degree I think.

Offline ShadowcatX

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Re: Initial Thoughts on the New Codex
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2015, 06:14:55 PM »
I mean at the local level more that the large scale. Just in the past year locally half of the guys have left for warmachine and hordes at one local store. The other store has all the budding players that are three to ten games in. As of now they already refused to play against Eldar now with the new levels of insanity there's a high chance of them quitting all together. Time will tell in the end. Considering my list that I'm in the middle of finishing just got made invalid with the sikitari dex and now the D-spam. Excitement for the game has diminished. I'll do the best I can with what I got I just hope not to be tabled every game by turn 3. Though the Are marines worth it thread may need to be revisited lol.

If you get tabled every game by turn 3 I'd recommend asking more experienced players to teach youwhat you are doing wrong because the problem isn't your opponent's codex.

Also, given that marines have consistently good showings in tournaments I don't think you should be belly aching.
Everything I have ever told you, even this, is a lie.

Offline ShadowcatX

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Re: Initial Thoughts on the New Codex
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2015, 06:22:41 PM »
2. I think the skyfire option on missiles should maybe be an upgrade every army should get, or they all should have to pay for it for EML. Great option, but unless every other army gets it we will hear the RAGE. Why take fliers against Eldar when they can hit you on 3's

You realize a lot of other armies have good ways of.dealing with flyers already, right? Tau can do it with a simple piece of wargear on a riptide.

Quote
3. If Destroyer weapons were toned down to Str 10 AP 1 Id have less issues with Anything with Str D. Otherwise I think alot of the RAGE is fair enough.

People have been wanting super heavies out of the game for a long while now. Now, suddenly, taking a superheavy is a serious risk. And people complain about that.

Quote
4. If the rest of the Armies get the "Eldar and Necron Treatment" the game will be very interesting and exciting. If they dont, they have just wrecked the game for Eldar players at least. The meta game stats will come out later and it will show the top armies winning Tournaments will mostly be Eldar - and it wont be based on skill. Is this a fair comment that I just made - I really dont know. But player skill should be involved and I hope it doesnt just let a 10 yr old take the table top and table an "experienced" player just because all they needed to do was roll some dice.

Actually, I'm not going to respond to this comment, I can't say anything nice and I don't want.to get moderated.

Quote
5. So excited to run Footdar in some way. Im not focused too much on vehicles atm, but the idea of lots of small units appeals to me. The more small units you run the harder it is to knock you down. A jetbike guadian host with a full aspect army with the Avatar is probably what I will try to run first. The avatar will die, but people will be happy with the eldar meta change in that degree I think.

There are so many things I want to try. And I greatly suspect it is that way for most Eldar players.
Everything I have ever told you, even this, is a lie.

Online Izzycat218

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Re: Initial Thoughts on the New Codex
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2015, 06:25:47 PM »
Okay. I think I've got some valid concerns but you have a good point. Problem with asking the vets for advice is they don't give any because they love winning too much. Centurion star shouldn't be the only way marines have a chance in my opinion. I'm okay with superheavie answers. Tired of being crush by a single model

Offline ShadowcatX

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Re: Initial Thoughts on the New Codex
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2015, 06:38:57 PM »
Problem with asking the vets for advice is they don't give any because they love winning too much.

That, more than anything I have seen printed in a codex, rulebook, or website makes me sad for our hobby. Back when I was getting into the hobby I would hang out at my (then) flgs for hours, watching people play. They told me about their armies, their tactics, everything. Right in front of their opponents. The Eldar player was cocky, but even so he didn't mind explaining the ins and outs of his army to the wild eyed college student who thought the idea that he should start with marines because they were the easy button was ridiculous. Thinking back, that is where my love for Eldar and White Scars both comes from.
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Online Izzycat218

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Re: Initial Thoughts on the New Codex
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2015, 06:51:54 PM »
That sounds like a great place to have learned to play. I like the local guys as people but as opponents not so much. I know I'm not a great player but I do okay I think. Being that I went with vanilla marines as my army the seem lackluster compared to all the crazy marine killing things. Nowadays I get excited when I get to make armor saves. I should complain compared to xenos but it's almo to the point I never roll any. That's why being tabled worries me. Uphill battle is one thing. Hopeless battle is completely different. Complaining done. Sorry guys.

Offline Sutr

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Re: Initial Thoughts on the New Codex
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2015, 07:23:30 PM »
It is my belief that ali this "over the top" eldar ideal will fade away once lists start being built. I play Tau myself and play againts eldar quite often and i belive i can play as well if not better against this new codex.

Then again i have eneughf firepower to take out 1 WK turn 1 and the bikes are just expensive SM for a mechanised Tau force.
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Online Izzycat218

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Re: Initial Thoughts on the New Codex
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2015, 07:35:31 PM »
I think tau and Astra militarum will be the biggest contenders. Necrons also. One of the local guys think new dex is to balance necrons

Offline Angelic

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Re: Initial Thoughts on the New Codex
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2015, 08:43:05 PM »
All righty! First of all, good call on the not being moderated part Shadowcat, I really appreciate it, you have no idea how much.

REST OF THINGS! DCannon4Life's comments:
1. I like the Conclave for generating Warp Charges but i'm not sure if I will roll on Runes of Battle or Daemonology Sanctic.. to be perfectly honest it'll be Runes of Battle when they are squad leaders, for Guardians and what have you, Conceal is priceless. In a Seer Council, which I will absolutely take on foot, i'm not so sure.. Gate of Infinity could be useful for mobility, Vortex of Doom is scary as hell, Hammerhand is somewhat cool, Sanctuary is just pure cheese for this unit combined with Fortune (3++ Re-rollable Invulnerable Saves? Yes please!) and Ghost Helms will help minimise wounds.. the issue being Ghost Helms seem to rely on the individual model having Warp charges.. not sure how this will function at all... ANYWAY that's just me and Ulthwe.
4. and 5. I am super excited about Flakk Missiles and Vehicle formations, I always loved the old Fire Prism system and I love a S6 AP2 Large Blast when it's needed, or a S10 AP1 Lance shot for that matter.. The versatility is nice.
7. Those formations are super, why shouldn't my Aspect Warriors gain BS or WS? It's not like they're cheap to begin with, but it makes you strategically take Shooty or Stabby units depending on which bonus you're going for
9. The Spirit Stone functions just like always, the Farseer who has it gets powers at -1 Warp Charge, that means WC1 Fortune, WC3 Apocalyptic Blast with Fleshbane and Haywire at AP3... and so on..
10. I'm pretty sure the jump is only in the Shooting Phase, also is Overwatch specifically classified as a Shooting Attack? and can you technically select a target during Overwatch?
12. Yeah.. did they need it? Probably not.. but they freakin' got it.. mind you I expect just as many of them to die from the resulting explosion/return fire as before.. Ahh the way of the Fire Dragon

6. Real, real, real, REAL, just REALL dirty.. I will not be doing this unless someone is being a particular kind of bad sportsman.

Once more Wraithknights, Jetbike and D Strength spam is absolutely ludicrous. But once again the majority of feedback i've seen is "Not touching that.. but the Aspect/Vehicle changes are awesome!"

I like to be the same way in my games, even to the extent that i'll try and help my opponent make sound tactical decisions by laying out all the options I can see to see if we're on the same page, but also to see if I can learn anything from the way they play. I think it's imperative to be this way with new players since it's basically make or break for them staying in the hobby. I've been up against the Rules Lawyer, WAAC types and it didn't come down to their list, just the way they behaved during the game.. even going so far as to make up rules just to win.. It's not the kind of beginner experience you want.

Some notes on the "Strength" of the codex as a whole.. the Warhost detachment is actually fairly unwieldy, I did some theory hammering last night and you can't really get anything at 500 points outside the Guardian detachment you choose, mind you that is without transports. Aspects are suddenly better at what they do.. Firstly Scorpions and Banshees are a lot more interesting and I think will see some more table time. Swooping Hawks actually got a bit of a role definition since i'm not sure what they were before. Fire Dragons are just.. Fire Dragons.. and Dark Reapers are perhaps going to be a little less focused on MEQs and a little more focused on light armour. Dire Avengers are pure infantry hate and whilst I like BS2 Overwatch, it's nothing Tau can't do MUCH better.

Are they overpowered/broken? I honestly don't think so.. let me just present to you the difference between T3 3+/4+ Space Elves and Marines.. Say we have a squad of 10 Space Marines fire at 10 Space Marines.. 3s hit, 4s wound 3+ Saves.. on average 1 will die (assuming my math is right).. Now let's switch this to a T3 Space Elf with a 3+ Save closer to 1.5 wounds and if we jump it up to a 4+ Save we get guaranteed 2 deaths! That's 10 Bolter shots.. I don't need to tell you about the myriad of Anti-Infantry weapons 40k armies have available or to point out being instagibbed at S6 is MUCH different to being instagibbed at S8. Some people would argue that in the majority of situations, where weapons are S6 or more it doesn't matter (apart from Instant Death).. you may be right, but most Infantry is armed with S4 weaponry.. that's basic Infantry and you're grabbing that extra 16% to wound just by virtue of us being Space Elves.. does it matter? I'd say it does more and more as the dice increase but moreso since generally our Aspects cost more per model.

Of course, none of this theoryhammer matters compared to genuine tabletop experience. I just want to say, we still have no Assault Transports, the DE equivalent is still made of paper, Cover is just as easy to Ignore and you're ALWAYS going to take losses.

Now let me take you to a time back in 5th Edition, when Grey Knights were released.. holy mother of god the sheer amount of hate was impenetrable.. Not only for the rules, oh no it did not stop there, even the fluff, the hate that collated around Matt Ward was absolutely insane. At my local Grey Knights became the equivalent of He Who Shall Not Be Named.. I recall one of my opponents being surprised that I failed a 3+ Save on a Purifier by virtue of the fact that it was just a T4 3+ MEQ with some shiny wargear. The reaction to my putting Draigo down on the table with Paladins.. Dreadknights! Oh do not even get me started.. every aspect of that model was scrutinized.. my lists were even watered down simply because I didn't want Psycannons out the wazoo and my opponents would give up before the start of Turn 1.. It was fantastic and absolutely insane.. but it faded.. Fritz mentioned the ridiculousness of Falcons back in 4th when Vehicles were basically invincible and Holo-Fields made Falcons basically impossible to crack in another thread.. but that faded..

As stuff comes out Eldar will fade just like every other "outrage" GW has been responsible for.. it's only a matter of time. But I think Sutr makes the point best for me. They may be more offensively potent, but I think Eldar are just as easy to kill as they've always been.

Anyway! I'm sure this is too ranty by now, so i'll end here~
The Dance Without End Begins..

Offline ShadowcatX

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Re: Initial Thoughts on the New Codex
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2015, 10:49:13 PM »
I wouldn't swear off no scatter deep strike D cannons just yet, new Imperial Knights with void shields and possibly its own ranged D gun may be coming.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 10:56:11 PM by ShadowcatX »
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