Author Topic: 7th Edition Eldar Insights #Warp Spiders  (Read 7320 times)

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Offline DCannon4Life

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7th Edition Eldar Insights #Warp Spiders
« on: May 26, 2015, 05:43:46 PM »
I wanted Warp Spiders for SOOOOO long (skipped 5th and didn't have any before I stopped playing in 4th), but didn't want Failcast. So I held out (even offered to buy a guy's unpainted, clearly underappreciated, spiders in the middle of a tournament game once--well, offered to by them after the tournament was over) until I could get metal, sweet, sweet metal. And now my Warp Spiders are all chipped up but very much loved. In my first games with them, I don't think they killed a thing. I mis-happed them more often than not, or dropped them in against targets they couldn't actually finish off. With time, and practice, I got to where I can't wait for turn two when my spiders come on and do their thing.

What have they lost?
Monofilament no longer goes to S7 versus low/no Initiative models. Monofilament is no longer AP1 (not that it ever mattered that I can tell; it was only AP1 versus models with a toughness value). That's pretty much it.

What have they gained?
Warp Spiders lose a man to the warp only on Snake Eyes. So jump 18 guilt-free inches, my friends, because you didn't kill anyone to get it done.

Monofilament now rolls to wound versus a model's Initiative (is S6 versus vehicles). This is hard to categorize as a gain or a loss. I guess it's just a change, a change that profoundly affects their utility, effectively removing them from the role of anti-AV12 (preventing them from engaging AV13 entirely) but making them absolutely punishing when used on multi-wound, low-initiative models (read: 'Nid gribblies, Riptides, Tomb Spyders, etc.). The change also introduces some radical inconsistencies compared to their previous incarnation. For example: 6th ed. Warp Spiders wounded Wraith Knights on 6s. 7th ed. Warp Spiders wound Wraith Knights on 3s--THREES! 6th ed. Warp Spiders wounded Daemon Princes (unbuffed) on 3s.  7th ed. Warp Spiders wound Daemon Princes on 6s--SIXES! They can't even touch an I10 model. We got better at killing our own stuff. Good job!

They also gained a 2-wound Exarch with the Eldar version of, 'And They Shall Know No Rules'. And, to put a cherry on this Warp Spider Sundae, they gained Flickerjump. We'll discuss that one later. :)

Should I take an Exarch? And should I spend the points on Power Blades? What about the Spinneret Rifle?
A Warp Spider Exarch is no longer an afterthought. It brings incredible perks to the unit for a mere 10 points. If you don't take one, you'd better have a good reason, or you'll be the rightful subject of ridicule and scorn (or scorn and ridicule, the order doesn't matter). The 10 points gets you: 1. An extra wound; that puts it on par with Librarians, Chaos Sorcerers and other 2-wound HQ models! This, in itself, is remarkable. 2. BS5 WS5 I6 and 2 attacks base; nothing to see here. 3. The 'Iron Resolve' special rule, which allows the unit to AUTOMATICALLY pass Pinning, Fear, Regroup and Morale checks (so long as the Exarch is alive, of course). This means that, unless you're worried about getting COMPLETELY obliterated in assault, you can go in (keep your Exarch 'safe' if need be, you know what I mean) and be confident of getting to Hit and Run when you need/want to.

As for the Power Blades, I think they're a wargear option worth considering now, for two main reasons: First, the Exarch is a 2-wound character that will get 4 attacks on the charge, at WS5, when equipped with Power Blades. Second, I think the Warp Spiders' battle-field role has changed to Skirmisher, which means they'll see an assault at least once a game. And if they're going to be in assault, they should bring something to the party that has to be accounted for (if not respected).

Spinneret Rifle Opinion, UPDATED and REVISED August 11, 2015 The Spinneret Rifle, which is Rapid Fire, S6, Monofilament AND AP1, is only 'really' effective at 9" or less. That's a bit close if you're not planning to end up in assault. It IS possible to Rapid Fire and still assault, since the spiders are Relentless. I'm not sure I will be using them myself, because I either want to be in assault, or be really hard to assault, not somewhere in between. Many thanks to UnorthodoxSoul for pointing out that Jet Pack Infantry have Relentless.

What's the optimal size?
Your mileage will vary. In 6th ed., my personal choice was a unit of 7 or 8. With the perks brought by the Exarch, they will stay on the board until he's gone, so you might be able to make 5 work. However, 10 shots is a bit meh compared to 14 (or 16!). I prefer for them to be able to remove a target by themselves, since they often operate on their own, without direct support from my other units, so I'll stay with 7 or 8.

How should they be used?
Warp Spiders are now firmly cast in the role of Skirmisher. Now that their role is more clearly defined (what COULDN'T they do in 6th ed.?), I can say that they are the best, bar none, skirmishing unit in the game. They not only retained their mobility, they expanded the ways in which they can use their mobility to shape and react to changes on the battlefield. Being a very high priority target, they should default to being kept in Deep Strike reserves. Oh, and you should know this, but if you don't: Be conservative when choosing your Deep Strike location. Warp Spiders have 12" guns, Battle Focus, and Fleet--you don't have to necessarily drop them Danger Close.

Their primary targets should be high-toughness, low-initiative models. I recently put 14 wounds (from 16 shots at BS5/6) on a Riptide, stripping three wounds off of it. Since Warp Spiders wound the vast majority of models on 2s, they should be matched up with units that they can either bring down with VoF (because of how well it translates into wounds) or that they can finish off with a quick assault. I don't recommend assaulting the high-toughness targets. :) They certainly don't have to be dropped off into a corner somewhere either. Putting them near a heavy transport you plan to crack with a different unit is Warp Spider 101, as is dropping them where they can assist with 'guaranteeing' that a specific unit be removed.

When moving them, they should be kept near ruins or other thin, LoS blocking pieces of terrain that they can reliably Jet Pack over (or Flickerjump to the other side of). The risk of losing models to Dangerous Terrain is off-set by keeping them safe from enemy shooting. And, they won't break (unless the Exarch breaks his ankle, amirite?).

Also: Warp Spiders should be part of an Aspect Host whenever possible. The only reason not to is if your list doesn't have enough Aspect Warriors to fill out the 3-unit requirement.

How about that Flickerjump?
DISCLAIMER: Flickerjump, when I first looked at it, appeared to offer INFINITE jumps (and infinite opportunities to lose even more friends than merely holding the new codex has already cost me). I have since looked more closely at it, and am confident that Flickerjump can only be performed ONCE during a turn. I will present my reasoning, but will not debate it here. I will gladly debate it in a different thread in the appropriate forum.

How Flickerjump Works (all on p188 of my interactive Ipad version): 1. Flickerjump is 'activated' (becomes an option) whenever the unit of Warp Spiders (we'll use a specific unit, rather than a generic unit) is chosen as the target of a shooting attack. 2. Having been targeted, the unit "can immediately make a Warp Jump" [my capitalization on 'Jump', sorry--expressive writer here], except that it only goes 2D6" instead of 2D6+6".

If we stop now, Warp Spiders can jump from here to infinity...and beyond. However, we ask, 'How does Warp Jump work?' (because Flickerjump IS a Warp Jump) which leads us to: 3. "If making a Warp Jump, the model immediately moves up to 2D6+6" in any direction (roll once per unit each turn)...". The key here is the limitation, 'roll once per unit each turn'. 'Turn', as we know, always means Player Turn. So, we can roll once for Warp Jump (2D6+6") in our Player Turn. Flickerjump allows us to make a limited Warp Jump (2D6") but is NOT limited to our opponent's Player Turn, it is limited by whether or not we have already performed a Warp Jump in that turn. We do not have permission to roll the dice more than once, and without rolling dice...we go nowhere. So, the 'Infinite Flickerjump' gets stuck on #2 and is therefore unable to complete the action.

How to use Flickerjump: Step One--Paint tiny Trollface memes on your Warp Spiders. Step Two--Provided you did NOT Warp Jump during your turn, declare an assault against a Tau Gunline and then Flickerjump around a corner when they decide to Overwatch. Step Three--Profit. Or, and this is really the most obvious one: If you get a poor Jet Pack roll, use Flickerjump to get out of LoS (or into cover). You are still Jet Pack infantry, so you can either walk or use the pack in the following turn--better to be hobbled for a turn than shot off the table. Finally (Trollfaces already on), Flickerjump away from Psychic Shriek (or any other Witchfire) during your opponent's Psychic Phase. Boom! Denied without using deny dice! Bwahahahaha! (Yeah, I did that--but then I let the guy take it back since it was just too much.)

Cheers!

Attached: Pic of my Warptrolls/Trollspiders





« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 09:01:09 AM by DCannon4Life »
First, you must learn Balance. --Miyagi

Offline Player 1

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Re: 7th Edition Eldar Insights #Warp Spiders
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2015, 10:55:58 PM »
I played in a tourny back in 5th with Spiders and took a relic/objective to and from the midfield to my deployment zone every turn. I didn't lose a single model that game (the only time that's ever happened) and the other guy was very sad, not upset or angry... just sad. So my love for the little guys is very high!

This book has them in an interesting place, but one thing you may have missed is what units should you pair them with? Eldar are good, but better when supported by multi-functioning parts in an army. Would you drop them down behind enemy lines alone or would you send in some fast jet bikes? I would argue that Vyper support speeding over from turn 1 would make a good traveling companion for them or even better.. Warwalkers outflanking! Have the walkers kick in some high powered BL or Starcannon shots to take out a transport and then have the spiders web up the tasty insides. You mensioned they are skirmishers, but have them supported by Banshies could be better. I don't think that Spiders need psychic support, though.

Online Morollan

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Re: 7th Edition Eldar Insights #Warp Spiders
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2015, 02:38:38 AM »
Good article! Leaving aside the Flickerjump debate, the only thing I'd argue with here is the Powerblade option. I really wouldn't consider these as 20 points is a massive cost for a few S3 AP3 attacks that you probably will only get once or twice a game. I'd rather take an extra Spider!

Offline mcphro

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Re: 7th Edition Eldar Insights #Warp Spiders
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2015, 06:01:52 AM »
awesome article. I have now added it to the menu.

thewarmaster.com/index.php?topic=1743.msg18332#msg18332

nOw I have to say myself.. I love warp spiders. In 6th they were a mandatory unit. I havent yet used them in 7th, so im a bit out to lunch. Ive considered the assault aspect of them as well, and I would consider it under a counple of conditions.

1. As I normally do, I never run just 1 squad - When I can have 3. I own 18 metal warp spiders with 3 exarchs. Now Im likely to use all 3.
2. I usually buy the spinnerette rifle, because I usually have 3 units. So 6 shots from them alone at AP 1 and BS5 does so much damage to a unit besides the other 12 warp spiders pilling in (Now Bs5 as aspect squad) 24 shots... thats 20 hits 3.5 rends (likely to have 10 wounds from an Int 4 unit). Thats like 5 + 3 (ap 1/2 hits) + 10 normal wounds.

One thing to consider now is that there is a BIG change. The Spinerette rifle is Rapid fire. So if you do buy the powerblades... YOU CANT ASSAULT.

So its either keep them shooty and dont buy the powerblades... or buy the powerblades but buy the twin linked Death spinner instead for the exarch. Now saying that - This type of unit wound be GREAT with Karandras coming in from the back end with a unit of scorpions. He comes in, 3 units of Warp spiders come in and blow units away, then they all charge into the assault next turn with AP 3 powerblades, AP 2 claws from exarchs and karandras.

BTW - The same rule applies to Swooping Hawks with Exarch and powerswords. I would consider 3 War Spider squads, 3 Swooping Hawk squads, Scorpion unit with karandras. The warp spiders warp in and fire, the Hawks WILL come in from ongoing reserves and fire and so with Karandras unit. then you now have Karandras, 1 scorpion exarch with AP 2 claw, 3 Warp spider exarchs with Str 3 AP 3 powerblades and 3 swooping hawk exarchs with powerswords AP 3... NOW.. were you rune enough to buy that exarch that landed with them with the Mask?

The only issue you cant get away with is hitting at Str 3.

Offline DCannon4Life

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Re: 7th Edition Eldar Insights #Warp Spiders
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2015, 06:15:17 AM »
@Player 1: If there's more call for it, I will go back and give my opinions on what units spiders work best with. The answer, in general, is pretty vanilla--they work well with anything but a gunline (and since Eldar don't do gunlines...).

@Morollan: I'm not a mathhammer guy. I do think, though, that 2 additional WS4 attacks at S3 AP- are not as good as 4 WS5 attacks at S3 AP3 (all on the charge, of course). The issue is whether or not those attacks are worth 20 points. To answer the question, I'd like to see the following, based on the assumption of making 1 assault per game:

--Power Blade performance (in a 5-man unit of spiders) in assault vs. 10 plain Guardsman Equivalent models.
--6-man unit of spiders (with Exarch) in assault vs. 10 plain Guardsman Equivalent models.

--Power Blade performance (in a 5-man unit of spiders) in a challenge vs. a Space Marine Sergeant & 4 other marines.
--6-man unit of spiders (with Exarch) in a challenge vs. a Space Marine Sergeant & 4 other marines.

And, for kicks:

--Power Blade performance (in a 5-man unit of spiders) in a challenge vs. a Librarian & 5 other marines.
--6-man unit of spiders (with Exarch) in a challenge vs. a Librarian & 5 other marines.

We should also assume Warp Spiders striking at Initiative (no point in analyzing a 'bad' assault), and we should keep in mind that the Exarch has 2 wounds, Iron Resolve AND Hit-and-Run.

I'm not saying the results would be definitive, but I'm interested to see whether they would lend any support to my feeling that Power Blades MIGHT be worth it. :)
First, you must learn Balance. --Miyagi

Offline DCannon4Life

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Re: 7th Edition Eldar Insights #Warp Spiders
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2015, 06:26:40 AM »
@mcphro: I also own 18(17?) Warp Spiders, and would consider running two units. I deal with far more AV12+ than I do other units, so the utility of multiple units of spiders is diminished.

You have not sold me on the Spinneret Rifle because it still puts them too close for comfort with regard to retaliatory assaults. Also, I absolutely disagree about buying the twin-linked Death Spinner. If you have 5 points kicking around and you've already kitted out your Atuarch, then I suppose it would be all right.

I completely agree about the Swooping Hawk Exarch. In my 'main' thread, I posted a revised tournament list that includes Power Blades and a Power Sword. I have reposted it below.

Revised Tournament List: Cut back on Dire Avengers in order to add power weapons for the Swooping Hawk and Warp Spider Exarchs.

Eldar Combined Arms Detachment 1119
HEADQUARTERS: Autarch (Fusion Gun, Scorpion Chainsword, Banshee Mask) 88
TROOP 1: 6 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent (Bright Lance) 193
TROOP 2: 6 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent (Bright Lance) 193
FAST ATTACK 1: 2 Hornets (Pulse Lasers) 160
FAST ATTACK 2: 2 Hornets (Pulse Lasers) 160
LORD OF WAR: Wraith Knight (2 Heavy Wraith Cannons, 2 Scatter Lasers) 325

Aspect Host Formation 559 [+1 Ballistic Skill, Re-roll failed Morale, Pinning & Fear Tests]
8 Warp Spiders (Exarch; Power Blades) 182
7 Swooping Hawks (Exarch; Power Sword) 132
5 Fire Dragons (Exarch), Wave Serpent (2 Star Cannons, Shuriken Cannon) 245

Dark Eldar Allied Detachment 170
HEADQUARTERS: Archon (Webway Portal, Power Sword, Haywire Grenades) 130
TROOP 1: 5 Dark Eldar Warriors 40

1848
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 09:00:45 AM by DCannon4Life »
First, you must learn Balance. --Miyagi

Online Morollan

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Re: 7th Edition Eldar Insights #Warp Spiders
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2015, 08:11:47 AM »
@Morollan: I'm not a mathhammer guy. I do think, though, that 2 additional WS4 attacks at S3 AP- are not as good as 4 WS5 attacks at S3 AP3 (all on the charge, of course). The issue is whether or not those attacks are worth 20 points. To answer the question, I'd like to see the following, based on the assumption of making 1 assault per game:

--Power Blade performance (in a 5-man unit of spiders) in assault vs. 10 plain Guardsman Equivalent models.
--6-man unit of spiders (with Exarch) in assault vs. 10 plain Guardsman Equivalent models.

--Power Blade performance (in a 5-man unit of spiders) in a challenge vs. a Space Marine Sergeant & 4 other marines.
--6-man unit of spiders (with Exarch) in a challenge vs. a Space Marine Sergeant & 4 other marines.

And, for kicks:

--Power Blade performance (in a 5-man unit of spiders) in a challenge vs. a Librarian & 5 other marines.
--6-man unit of spiders (with Exarch) in a challenge vs. a Librarian & 5 other marines.

We should also assume Warp Spiders striking at Initiative (no point in analyzing a 'bad' assault), and we should keep in mind that the Exarch has 2 wounds, Iron Resolve AND Hit-and-Run.

I'm not saying the results would be definitive, but I'm interested to see whether they would lend any support to my feeling that Power Blades MIGHT be worth it. :)

To simplify matters, I quickly did the mathhammer for Exarch and Warp Spider (48 points) vs GEQ and MEQ compared to a single Exarch with Power Blades (49 points). The rest of the unit should do exactly the same, although we should remember that the shooting attack of the unit without the power blades will be that much more powerful so that when they assault, there will be less overwatch and fewer incoming attacks.

vs GEQ
Shooting
Exarch + Spider = 1.83 unsaved wounds
Exarch = 1.02 unsaved wounds (-0.81)
Assault
Exarch + Spider = 5 attacks, 3.33 hits, 1.67 wounds, 1.11 unsaved wounds
Exarch = 4 attacks, 2.67 hits, 1.33 wounds, 1.33 unsaved wounds (+0.22)
Overall: -0.59

vs MEQ
Shooting
Exarch + Spider = 1.17 unsaved wounds
Exarch = 0.65 unsaved wounds (-0.52)
Assault
Exarch + Spider = 0.78 unsaved wounds
Exarch = 0.89 unsaved wounds (+0.11)
Overall: -0.41

Offline DCannon4Life

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Re: 7th Edition Eldar Insights #Warp Spiders
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2015, 08:50:51 AM »
Not sure about the numbers--tell me if I do this right:

Exarch + 5 Warp Spiders on the charge = 3 attacks at I6 WS5 and 10 attacks at I5 WS4.
--3 x .66 (hitting on 3's, so 2/3 of the attacks hit), x .33 (wounding on 5's, so 1/3 wound) x .33 (MEQ failing armor save only 1/3 of the time) = ~0.2178 unsaved wounds from the Exarch's attacks. So, more likely to do no wounds at all than to do even 1 wound, right?
--10 x .5 (hitting on 4's, so 1/2 of the attacks hit), x .33 (wounding on 5's, so 1/3 wound) x .33 (MEQ failing armor save only 1/3 of the time) = ~0.5445 unsaved wounds from the spiders' attacks. Barely more likely to do a wound than not.

Exarch w/ Power Blades + 4 Warp Spiders on the charge = 4 attacks at I6 WS5 and 8 attacks at I5 WS4.
--4 x .66, x .33 (No armor saves) = ~0.8712 unsaved wounds from the Exarchs attacks. So, more likely to do 1 wound than to do no wounds, right?
--8 x .5, x .33, x .33 (armor saves) = ~0.4356 unsaved wounds from the spiders' attacks. More likely to do no wounds than to do even one.

If it's ok to add the unsaved wounds from the Exarch to those from the spiders (I really don't know if it is--not a mathhammer guy):

Exarch + 5 Warp Spiders = ~0.7623 unsaved wounds
Exarch w/ Power Blades + 4 Warp Spiders = ~ 1.3068 unsaved wounds

I appreciate that shooting is a factor; how many Warp Spiders can you get for the price of a reasonably equipped 10-man unit of Space Marines? If they shoot first, then assault, it seems like the 1 additional spider will become less relevant (have less of an impact) as the total volume of fire goes up, so it would have the biggest impact when comparing 5 spiders to 6.

For me, even though I'm not much of a gambler, the possibility of putting 4 AP3 wounds on a MEQ unit is worth the 20-point investment. Sure, statistically that doesn't happen often (doesn't have to happen at all--stupid probability, always messing up my coin tosses), but it can't POSSIBLY happen if the Exarch doesn't have Power Blades in the first place.
First, you must learn Balance. --Miyagi

Online Morollan

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Re: 7th Edition Eldar Insights #Warp Spiders
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2015, 03:43:27 AM »
I think I got my assault numbers vs MEQ wrong.

vs MEQ
Shooting
Exarch + Spider = 1.17 unsaved wounds
Exarch = 0.65 unsaved wounds (-0.52)
Assault
Exarch + Spider = 0.33 unsaved wounds
Exarch = 0.89 unsaved wounds (+0.56)
Overall: +0.04

It means that there is a very minor improvement in wounds caused by the powerblades vs the shooting of the extra Warp Spider. For me personally, that is not a good trade off though as Spiders are primarily a shooting unit and they are going to shoot far more often than they assault.

Offline cavalier

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Re: 7th Edition Eldar Insights #Warp Spiders
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2015, 03:55:00 AM »
This is an excellent article D-Cannon. Its stuff like this that has me a dedicated forum reader as opposed to the "articles" featured on most of the 40k websites.

I totally agree with you. This unit is unbelievable, and your analysis of the Exarch is spot on. Its been said before but 7th ed. Exarchs are as close as we're ever gonna get to 2nd edition Exarchs which is so awesome. I think GW did a great job of desigining these units.... the Aspects are now extremely flexible without losing their niche.

Gotta convert up some counts-as Spiders for my Corsairs. I think they'd work great with my Hawks.

Thanks D-Cannon gotta go read the rest of your articles!

Offline DCannon4Life

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Re: 7th Edition Eldar Insights #Warp Spiders
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2015, 05:51:52 AM »
@cavalier: I'm flattered, thank you!

@Morollan: The conclusion I would like to draw is that it isn't a blatant, indefensible waste of points to give the Exarch Power Blades rather than take another spider. :)
First, you must learn Balance. --Miyagi