Author Topic: Making a Tournament standing BT list?  (Read 2307 times)

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Offline Lakey Wargames

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Making a Tournament standing BT list?
« on: October 24, 2015, 06:26:07 PM »
Hey guys. It's great to of found a place here within these forum pages and on the internet in general people like yourselves with a passion for the Black Templar army. I've already had some good chats, posts and replies with people here regarding fluffy lists and modelling of BT units and read some inspiring stuff on others which I love but now I feel it's time to attempt a delve into a crunching topic that everyone could contribute into and possibly benefit everyone. That topic being trying to push out a BT army on the tournament scene.

What would you guys consider the key elements to making a tournament competitive army? Not just to take part and finish mid table but to try and take 1st. I don't want to hear about how other chapters can do things we can't but more focus on us being able to use everything we have at our disposable. Even if it means not sticking 100% to the fluff but just running everything in the army BT style with looks and feel. (No limits to ideas/units used)

So I guess to kick things off for the main bread and butter of the force it would require tactical marines instead of crusaders and following down the road of a demi-battle company?
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Offline Lakey Wargames

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Re: Making a Tournament standing BT list?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2015, 03:33:04 PM »
Hmmm I'm guessing by the lack of replies after a few days I was right in thinking I'm crazy for thinking up ways of using a  BT force in a competitive tournament setting   :o  :P
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Online Izzycat218

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Re: Making a Tournament standing BT list?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2015, 10:03:59 AM »
When in the right setting BT are pretty awesome. The issue is assault themed space marines are bad compared to other assault armies. The lack of psykers hurts as well. Locally my four land raider list did well. At a non local event I lost to brass scorpion and such. BT can take first but it's an uphill battle. If you abandon the fluff and take the super units they'll be okay but in the end other chapters do it better plain and simple.

Offline Dirty Harry

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Re: Making a Tournament standing BT list?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2015, 01:19:24 PM »
BT can do assault and have psyker support from Librarius conclave, but you have to take the Dark Angels version so you don't lose out on chapter tactics.

Here's a list that I think would do well in the environment-

Chaplain w/ auspex and digital weapons 100 pts

3x Ten man Tactical squads w/ grav cannon and melta gun in rhinos 660 pts

1x five man Assault squad w/ sergeant with powerfist in a razorback upgraded with twin linked assault cannons 170 pts

1x five man devastator squad in  razorback with twin-linked lascannons 145 pts

10th company task force

3x  five man scout squads w/ combat weapons in land speeder storms 300 pts

Now all of this will be apart of a gladius strike force. All of this comes in at around 1375 pts, giving you room for something like an Imperial Knight in an 1850 list.

Few things to note about this list I have so far-

It has a strong element of Objective Secured. It has 8 units starting on the table and it hasn't even hit 1500 pts yet. Standard battle company lists take the minimum required just so you can flood the table with as many cheap units as possible. I personally don't subscribe to this method for the simple fact that Kill Points games are an uphill battle. I'd rather balance out the amount of punch and durability with each unit, to better leverage my odds of doing well in either a kill points game or an objective based game. Scouts have more points invested into them than usual because now that scouts have WS/BS4 they make for a promising close combat element. The speeder storm comes equipped with a tool called the cerberus launcher, that if I recall, lowered leadership in addition to any damage it might do. I like this for the idea of a much easier combat resolution against nonfearless enemy elements.

The assault squad as well as devastator squad I felt only needed to be taken in units of 5 because 1, I feel that twin-linked weapon systems on vehicles are a better bargain than weapons you can give your units. You can give heavy weapons and evicerators to your assault squads and devastators respectively if you wanted to invest the points, but I feel points are better invested elsewhere.

Now, with 475 pts left over if you wanted to go 1850 (Ive noticed this points level seems to be the gold standard in competitive) You could like I mentioned previously, take an Imperial Knight, or even compensate lack of anti air with the air defense formation. I'd recommend against taking something like First company task force unless you dropped the transports from the scouts or just dropped the scouts entierly, because First company needs a bit of a points investment to make an impact. 5 terminators without a heavy weapon aren't really going to do anything other than tickle what ever it shoots at the moment it drops, 5 sternguard in a pod have a slim chance of putting a dent in something when they drop in, and Vanguard vets can look scary when they arrive. Realistically, these guys are assets you want to do a little more than just fire and forget. they're still space marines, T4, with a 2+ and 3+ respectively.
Don't try making a unit unkillable. its a waste of time and the dice gods laugh at you for wasting your time. Dedicate a unit to a job and make sure it does it til it's either dead or running.

Online Izzycat218

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Re: Making a Tournament standing BT list?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2015, 01:53:20 PM »
BT can do assault and have psyker support from Librarius conclave, but you have to take the Dark Angels version so you don't lose out on chapter tactics.

Here's a list that I think would do well in the environment-

Chaplain w/ auspex and digital weapons 100 pts

3x Ten man Tactical squads w/ grav cannon and melta gun in rhinos 660 pts

1x five man Assault squad w/ sergeant with powerfist in a razorback upgraded with twin linked assault cannons 170 pts

1x five man devastator squad in  razorback with twin-linked lascannons 145 pts

10th company task force

3x  five man scout squads w/ combat weapons in land speeder storms 300 pts

Now all of this will be apart of a gladius strike force. All of this comes in at around 1375 pts, giving you room for something like an Imperial Knight in an 1850 list.

Few things to note about this list I have so far-

It has a strong element of Objective Secured. It has 8 units starting on the table and it hasn't even hit 1500 pts yet. Standard battle company lists take the minimum required just so you can flood the table with as many cheap units as possible. I personally don't subscribe to this method for the simple fact that Kill Points games are an uphill battle. I'd rather balance out the amount of punch and durability with each unit, to better leverage my odds of doing well in either a kill points game or an objective based game. Scouts have more points invested into them than usual because now that scouts have WS/BS4 they make for a promising close combat element. The speeder storm comes equipped with a tool called the cerberus launcher, that if I recall, lowered leadership in addition to any damage it might do. I like this for the idea of a much easier combat resolution against nonfearless enemy elements.

The assault squad as well as devastator squad I felt only needed to be taken in units of 5 because 1, I feel that twin-linked weapon systems on vehicles are a better bargain than weapons you can give your units. You can give heavy weapons and evicerators to your assault squads and devastators respectively if you wanted to invest the points, but I feel points are better invested elsewhere.

Now, with 475 pts left over if you wanted to go 1850 (Ive noticed this points level seems to be the gold standard in competitive) You could like I mentioned previously, take an Imperial Knight, or even compensate lack of anti air with the air defense formation. I'd recommend against taking something like First company task force unless you dropped the transports from the scouts or just dropped the scouts entierly, because First company needs a bit of a points investment to make an impact. 5 terminators without a heavy weapon aren't really going to do anything other than tickle what ever it shoots at the moment it drops, 5 sternguard in a pod have a slim chance of putting a dent in something when they drop in, and Vanguard vets can look scary when they arrive. Realistically, these guys are assets you want to do a little more than just fire and forget. they're still space marines, T4, with a 2+ and 3+ respectively.

Everything you've listed ultras do it better with twin linked every turn.

Offline Dirty Harry

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Re: Making a Tournament standing BT list?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2015, 04:20:22 PM »
Not the point, OP wants to play Black Templars in a competitive meta. Would you like to suggest builds rather than discount the BT chapter tactics?
Don't try making a unit unkillable. its a waste of time and the dice gods laugh at you for wasting your time. Dedicate a unit to a job and make sure it does it til it's either dead or running.

Online Izzycat218

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Re: Making a Tournament standing BT list?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2015, 05:58:19 PM »
Not the point, OP wants to play Black Templars in a competitive meta. Would you like to suggest builds rather than discount the BT chapter tactics?

I don't discount them or discourage them. But let's face it if you're charging ten tacs into something there not going to over watch you. And if they're charging you they're not going to fire at you first. Our previous chapter tactics were better. Now that there is so much anti marine tech that T4 3+ is a joke forcing chapter tactics to do what there not meant to do is only hurting the list. I still run the landraider Rush list which works okay. There is a reason the top gladius lists aren't BT. He wants first place. I'm not saying he couldn't do it but why make it harder. The fact that every marine list has a knight in it now days disappoints me. What happen to the days of playing your codex and making it work and win games? Instead it's become my book has flaws I'll just put allies in and now its unstoppable. I'm glad some of you can get Templars to work but in my meta of eldar. Crons, and super heavies marines don't work. Alpha strike drop pods is the only list keeping up.

Offline Dirty Harry

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Re: Making a Tournament standing BT list?
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2015, 07:25:54 PM »
The top gladius lists aren't BT because like you mentioned before, Ultra Marines can twin link everything for 5 turns. White scars can get that hit and run on everything and anything and Iron Hands according to ITC at least, can make all vehicles have It Will Not Die. I have a hard time believing that people will forego overwatch in order to not give BT their righteous zeal, just to mitigate attacks in close combat. Also I hardly ever see knights in marines lists. Only time I see knights is in War Convocation and adamantine lance. Also most of the books now a days only ally in other armies to fill out something like a Death Star. Librarius conclave is taken for invisibility. Blood Angels are taken for the sang priest with Feel No Pain. Dark Eldar takes Eldar components for the Wraith Knight. Outside of the many Half-books I can't see many other armies taking allies. The rest seem to ally for flavor. Chaos, Necrons, Orks, and Tyranids are generally one book armies.
Don't try making a unit unkillable. its a waste of time and the dice gods laugh at you for wasting your time. Dedicate a unit to a job and make sure it does it til it's either dead or running.

Online Izzycat218

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Re: Making a Tournament standing BT list?
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2015, 12:17:50 PM »
Most seasoned players don't over watch my BT anymore with the new rules unless it's honor guard charging. I see Knights in every game especially with marines. One guy has eight of them. The allying you listed is what I meant by unstoppable. Think T-Rex meme when it get reach claws lol. Crons don't need it. Green ride still works. Bugs can't really ally effectively. Chaos is in a bad place even with allies. I do wish the OP luck with coming up with a comp BT list. Unfortunately I've been pushed by the power gamers in my area to play tau when I want to win and BT when I want to have fun playing with the casual guys. If I want to have no friends for the day I play war congregation that someone else bought to own and paint but won't play it currently. We just had a tournament that was "friendly" where I brought infantry and no super heavy. My teammate and I got crushed. The vet and I were talking and one goes "No stomp no play" has become the name of the game. It was split force org 1000pts each. 800pt stompa team won. Broke some of the rules in list construction though.