Author Topic: Haemy gear, and ally list questions  (Read 962 times)

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Offline Noctifer

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Haemy gear, and ally list questions
« on: March 21, 2017, 04:06:34 PM »
So I was thinking of dipping my toes into DE, mostly as allies to start and see if wyches are viable, maybe with a Haemy​ leading them (thinking deep strike gets them in on turn 2 - so 3 with matter of pain gives them FNP 4+, then they can charge on turn 3 so they get the furious charge).

Three questions:
1) everywhere (skaredcast heamonculi video, 1d4chan. Dark eldar 7e artefacts of cruelty section) it talks about haemies with armour of misery.  But armour of misery is an artefact of cruelty, and the codex seems to say they just get weapons of torture and tools of torment lists.  How are people getting that armour on their haemi?

2) more generic, when you take allies is it only through Ally detachment or can you get them in an actual formation from their book?  Could you get a coven as an ally? Could you get a coven formation?  Or is it always 1 HQ, 2 troop, and a few other things?

3) wyches get 4++ in fight subphase, not necessarily in fight.  Do they get that against overwatch or is overwatch considered a different phase?. (er, realized overwatch is charge subphase, so if there's overwatch there's the regular slaughter involved, ignore this
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 06:06:43 PM by Noctifer »

Online SharkoutofWata

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Re: Haemy gear, and ally list questions
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2017, 07:08:48 PM »
I can save you a whole lot of time and say Wyches are not viable.  Dying by droves to Bolters is a bad place to be for an Assault unit that doesn't even put out a whole lot of damage against common enemies.  You're looking at a unit that is outright worse than Genestealers in the Tyranid Codex, and Genestealers were an almost surefire way to lose a game.  So, you will have to go into it with that in mind, your unit is going to die horribly more times than it will accomplish something, so your army needs to maximize on their death and take extra steps to make them annoying.

Your initial concept is flawed.  If you Deep Strike them, they're dead.  They'll be surrounded by whatever gun is closest and blasted off the board.  They are T3, so a Large Blast of S6 or higher will outright kill almost every single model it touches.  They won't get FNP from S6 or higher.  Consider a Raider or a mess of Reavers to deliver a squad.  Both have benefits.  Raiders get a 3+ Jink with Night Shields, which lets them serve as an Assault boat.  Your models can Assault directly from it without standing around with their thumbs up their butts.  But Raiders are also bad, so there's that.  Weak things with limited firepower.  Reavers only carry five models, but three Reavers means 15 Wyches, and on top of that, three Reavers.  Reavers with two Splinter Cannons are good units and again, you can charge right out the back of them.  They're weaker and only protected by a 5++, which is why you need many of them so some survive the drop.  Alternatively, look at Ynnari from Gathering Storm 2.  You lose Power from Pain, but gain Soulburst, which allows out of sequence attacks when a unit dies.  Having multiple small units allows Soulburst to really shine because remember, a unit may only Overwatch once per turn.

Now your questions.  Did you pay for your codex or did you find it online?  Because I found mine online and there is a very clear part missing from a failure in the file where it would say Artifacts of Cruelty, but since I don't use Haemonculi I never noticed.  If you have found it online, take a look at a paper codex to double check.  If you have a paper codex in front of you, I don't know.  I'm not seeing anything in Haemonculus Covens to grant them Artifacts either so I have to assume my own book is wrong or the youtubers are wrong.  I'm going to bet my file is faulty though.

2:  Ally is a word and it means almost nothing anymore.  As you build your army, 'ally' only comes in to play when you determine the relationship between Detachment A and Detachment B.  An Allied Detachment is just a name of another specific Detachment but the term ally and Allied Detachment are completely seperate.  You will be allied to whatever you bring as another Detachment but you can pick any Detachment that exists to add into your army, no matter the faction, ally level or type as long as all the restrictions are abided by.

Offline Noctifer

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Re: Haemy gear, and ally list questions
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2017, 12:52:01 AM »
Thank you so much for that awesome and thorough reply! I was afraid of that on wyches, was just hoping I'd found some possible redeeming way of using them..  (and oops, yea, I'd initially meant in a jinking raider, should've specified, that's where I was getting the deep strike from).   

When you say raveger, are you meaning venom?  I am actually using a digital book, need to dig up my paper one wherever it's burried at this point.. do raveger carry troops now?  If you meant venom I was looking at that and it's same points, half the carry capacity (so can't attach special characters), worse weapons, all for a 5++?  I see lots of people taking about them but not really seeing what they provide over a raider beyond a smaller footprint?

Hmm.. though sounds like it might not matter / that they won't really make a difference regardless if carrying wyches, forgot about the 6+ instant death vs T3.  Gah.. sad.. 

Mmm Ally wise I was messing allies detachment, the one from the core book.  So you can actually just mix detachments from different armies now?  And not just in unbound?  I thought you had to have the main army and then just a smattering of others here and there.. o.O

Online Sensenbob

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Re: Haemy gear, and ally list questions
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2017, 02:06:10 AM »
Yes you can just mix armies now. As long as every single part of your army is organised in Detachments or Formations you are not unbound. Bigger detachments of a single faction can however just grant better bonuses in some cases.

Shark was talking about the Venom.
The Venom is not liked because of the 5++ but because it's shooty and small and can be spammed. It's more of a Gunboat than a Transport
2 Splinter Cannons (12 shots!!) put out a very decent amout of dakka, most importantly at 36'' range which outranges most armies and allows for a powerful Alpha Strike in combination with anti-tank units. TransportCapacity of only 5 means the whole thing won't be too expensive if it dies, even if the vehicle costs the same as a Raider.
A Raider on the other hand has either 1 or 3 shots, which are nice but will miss very often or only kill one model. The transport capacity of 10 and option for Splinter Racks makes you want to put in 10 passengers which will make the combined squad quite expensive.

So the problem is: Dark Eldar are squishy. If your enemy shoots at your unit, it will be wiped out more often than not (especially flamers' No Escape rule makes them die horribly). So the choice comes down to losing a Venom with 5 passengers or a tricked out Raider with 10 passengers which is more expensive.
The concept of survival comes down to having as many small units as possible in order to loose less from a single blow and present more choices to the enemy. 2 Venoms aren't very good, but 7 Venoms become quite scary. (Since you are only taking them as allies, you might need other units that have more priority for the enemy to take out than the Venoms)

Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics ran some Wych/Venom spam lists which were quite powerful and entertaining.
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Offline Noctifer

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Re: Haemy gear, and ally list questions
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2017, 08:58:23 AM »
Hmm. Sounds like I need to stop thinking of DE as an army and more like bullets that I fire, take out a target, and then assume to be dead beyond that point.  I've.. never played that way before, should be interesting.  Will totally start as allies then while I try and get used to that..

Offline Noctifer

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Re: Haemy gear, and ally list questions
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2017, 06:10:55 PM »
Just to check btw, HQ units can't join squads in venoms, right?  Since venoms hold 5, and minimum squad sizes for warriors and wyches are 5?

Online Sensenbob

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Re: Haemy gear, and ally list questions
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2017, 12:54:55 AM »
Correct.
But you can give him Incubi (min.size 3) or a Court of the Archon. For maximum points saving you can use a single Lhamaean as your HQ-choice.
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