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Messages - SharkoutofWata

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1
General Discussion / Re: 8th Ed. Are you ready?
« on: May 23, 2017, 03:24:02 AM »
19 Primaris to give folks a boost on that sort of army.  That's pretty friggin good of them.  I doubt I'll need another Primaris for as long as they aren't replacing basic Marine models but I'm already expecting to need moreover of those Jump Pack guys from folks where I play.  And the heroes actually look good, not like the meh poses we've been getting from a lot of monopose models.  Weapon choice is pretty modest on everyone but the Captain. 

The only model I might not use is the Blightbringer.  Not my aesthetic style even in a Nurgle host of my Red Corsairs.  That Lord though...  That thing looks amazing.  It even looks worthy to use Typhus rules on the table if need be.  The Bloat Drone looks like a toned down Blight Drone and I'm excited for the rules.  Looks like Lascannons on the thing so I'm looking forward to options.  The Blight had options for Autocannons and some dangerous puke options, making it pretty friggin beastly.  New name, new model, hopefully familiar rules though.  I may need six.

That's a lot of value packed into a box.  I'm wondering what the price is going to be.  Initial rumors were almost on the money for what was included in the box, so I'm hoping the $125 is still going to hold, but seeing how much is here...  Just the full book has always been GW's price grab of $80+.  I was expecting a mini again, not the full thing.

The quote of a quote on another forum rumor says 125 for the box, so overly simple math says $150 USD.

2
General Discussion / Re: heavy and special weapons
« on: May 20, 2017, 01:38:56 PM »
Special weapons are 100% necessary.  Without them, you're stuck with a bunch of nothing much.  Certain matchups you might be fine with, but there will be matches where you need that Plasma oomph or the Sniper support or the whatever else.  As a Nid player, I'm throwing D3 shots with my basic gun, 2d3 on my Venom Cannon, and not much lives through that, meanwhile shrugging off Bolters like they're nothing.  With just three Warriors, I'll chew through a lot of lists without sweating, unless they have something that can actually Pin or hurt my beasts.  So far, Psycannons are my biggest threat.

3
40K Rules Questions / Re: Move, Shoot(assualt weapon), Assault?
« on: May 19, 2017, 09:15:01 AM »
Yes, and move.

4
40K Rules Questions / Re: Move, Shoot(assualt weapon), Assault?
« on: May 18, 2017, 09:07:06 PM »
The section you're looking for is in the Shooting Phase, Weapons, Weapon Types, Assault Weapons.  No page number for you, but you should be able to find it by narrowing down to the sections listed.

Simple answer is that yes, you absolutely can fire the Assault weapons and charge.

5
General Discussion / Re: A Missed Opportunity
« on: May 16, 2017, 03:17:19 PM »
They're not invalidating anything, but look at the difference between the dwarf Marines of RT and the old 25mm Terminators.  Yes, you can still and always use them, but, they look kinda silly.  And they look really silly when you can't make a ten man unit of them so have four dwarves, two 25mm and four 32mm Marines.  Now we have a forth version of the same model that looks still different.  Maybe they'll stay a whole seperate unit, but maybe they won't.  We really don't know.

I really hope these become the basic bog standard Marine, because they look like a Space Marine is described as in fluff, but it makes me not want to pick up the Vanguard Veterans that I need for my Ultramarines.  Or makes me want to plan ahead and build them out as NuMarines and just hope the game catches up to them and makes them normal.

6
Use the base that the model is supplied with.  And if anyone has the audacity to complain, every single one of their Marine models better be on 32mm bases and even then, ignore them.  Base size changes is an option, not a requirement for the games played.  My Nid Warriors are on their old 40mm, and two are on the new bigger ones, in the same unit.  My Flyrant is sitting pretty on the original oblong rock shaped base it came with from Forge World, and my walking Tyrant has a 40mm instead of the current 60mm because both came from 3rd Edition and the box the model came from.  If you like the older models that are in fact smaller and can be used for advantage, use them and I don't care if you ARE trying to take advantage.  You're just hiring the skinny soldier to fight in your war, that's all.

7
In the current rules, a Lone Wolf is about 90% useless because you actually can't let them join a unit later.  They don't have Independent Character, which is the rule that allows them to join units, and they specifically have a rule forbidding other ICs from joining them.  They are as full and complete a unit as a Grey Hunter unit, but much much smaller.  You can attempt to make them better, sure, or use them as a distraction, but they're not big enough to be a real Distraction Carnifex, the affectionate shorthand name for units that you rush forward to either die horribly or mess things up for your opponent.  The units of Fenrisian Wolves make a better distraction carnifex, and usually for cheaper.

Wolf Guard are similar to CSM Chosen in that they are a special unit of too many options that just don't survive taking a whole mess of hits on the chin.  And they're going to get hit hard if you load them up to be a 250pt monster squad.  Dump enough weapons in a unit, and Character, and Transport, and you're hurting your overall army because of it.  If Chosen get good, Wolf Guard will have gotten good.  We see a chance of that happening, but no guarantees yet.  Grey Hunters are the diet choice and carry two Special Weapons per ten men, improving their chance to hurt things.  I would say avoid Wolf Guard unless you have a footslogging HQ that needs a dedicated Bodyguard for Assault but isn't quite good enough to warrant Terminators.  Or, if you happen to have the models built up with a mess of weapons and don't want to waste them.  The big thing is their transport.  You need to be able to Assault out of it and Land Raiders are expensive on points, but we know almost everything about what they're becoming, and they are powerful.  The Stormwolf is also viable but we know less about it.  It's a haphazard solution, but it is a solution and they might be strong as hell.  Right now, the Stormwolf fails to impress me.  Again, I play a mess of armies so I only look at the best of each category to actually work with and Space Wolves are nowhere near kings of the sky.

Nearly every model in the game can be magnetized through various amounts of work.  On the Stormwolf, I had to build a magnetized structure on the inside of the chassis to swap out the front door and main cannon, but it wasn't overly difficult.  Just took some thinking.  On some tanks I have a magnet on one end and just a strip of broken and dulled hobby knife blade.  Hard metal for the magnet to grab.  It quickly becomes just another part of building a model to drill and slap in a magnet on the stuff that'll need it.

8
Raiders have already been revealed to be a powerful Jink beast, better than the potent ability they have right now even.  It's a solid delivery of some of the Dark Eldar Special Weapons and if they stay as they are, that will be a strong force.  Venom Spam looks like it will still see play with the added potency of getting that charge, you may even have a real reason to take Assault units in some and Weapon units in others.  It might, just might, end up being worth the effort of adding variation to the Spam.  I personally still love the Jetbikes and Jump Pack unit, because even though they are weak to getting shot, they have their prey and they excel at hunting it.  I play Ynnari but my Dark Eldar do a lot of lifting themselves, usually at targets softened up by Illic Nightspear's Rangers, but that's just my playstyle.

Incubi are potent, as long as they get where they need to be.  I can't help but figure they'll be even more potent in the next edition, Rending with that massive glaive at a rate that just puts Marines in the ground.  Mandrakes though are THE unit that players better than me rave about.  If they are played right, in a way that I just can't do apparently, they do am amazing amount of work.  I just don't get it, but on the table I've seen them consistently perform, and I've never been able to do it myself.

9
In smaller point games, Wulfen are plenty threat on their own.  In larger games, yes, the TWC need to soak up the shots because both are very dangerous, the TWC are more so.  And I /heard/ that TWC are going up to 4 wounds per model, but I have no source except word of mouth so don't count on it, only hope for it.  But, as you start out, you will have to make some below-the-best choices just because of financial limitations or as you steadily get more familiar with your army and your style as a player.  So if you were planning an 1850+pt game tomorrow, I would say that you should absolutely have TWC in the front of your pack, because you're starting out, the Wulfen alone will do just fine.  And they are fast enough to be dangerous.  They don't have a flatout 12", but they are running every turn, including the turn they want to charge.  Very unique ability right there.

Arming them is a pretty simple formula.  No more than half get Thunderhammer/Stormshields, to save on points, and the rest get what weapons you see fit.  Claws are faster, axes are heavier, but expect bits of that to change.  We've seen the rules for Force Axes and Force Swords and traditionally, Claws were equal to Swords but with rerollable wounding.  Axes will no longer be as potent as they are right now, losing their AP2 but also, as far as we know now, losing Unwieldy.  If the Wulfen axes will follow the same pattern as the Force weapons, your guess is as good as mine.  There's a lot of new rules interactions that clash with what Wulfen are good at, so we just have to see.  I'm confident though that TH/SS will still be a potent choice in one way or another.  If they remove Storm Shields... a lot of people will be sad.

I did mean Fenrisian Wolves, and you're right, they will get gunned down.  They're not meant to survive or even do damage, but every shot into them is one less shot into your other guys.  And they're cheap, fast and can do damage enough to make them a threat.  New rules in mind, they'll be able to help you control the table if they can move faster than the other guys.  They ought to be a solid choice even after edition change.

Vindicators are a Blood Angel thing, because theirs move 12" and shoots just fine.  I play enough armies that I usually cherry pick the units in each Faction just based on if they do it better.  So my Blood Angels are the ones that use Vindicators.  They are such a major threat though that they got broken fast.  Most tanks in general are going to have to hold off till we see all the rules.  Dreadnoughts are a personal choice.  Drop Podding some at close range is a very valid strategy, and Space Wolves have some good upgrades to drop them with.  Long range weapons on Dreads are getting some upgrades too so that's not out of the question.  The best part is that the arms shouldn't require glue to attach shoulder to body, so you can swap them out as you see fit to see what feels right for you.  What is lacking in your army, or what you want to play with.  Personally, I like the CCW arm and an Assault Cannon at close range.  That might change with the new rules for Twin Linked and that Heavy Bolter looks nicer and nicer.

10
Space Wolves in the current edition are what is considered an elite army to really shine as something special.  Terminators are not a good choice, though fundamental changes to Terminators are incoming that might fix all those issues, and Thunderwolves are an amazing choice.  Wulfen are another very good choice, like a mix between TWC and Wolf Guard and at the start, I would push you towards that as your super wolfy choice so you can get a feel for how Space Wolves like to kill things.  But, they're in a campaign book, which is going to be as obsolete as your Codex when 8th hits.  There is a chance that Blood Claws and Wulfen together make a good one-two punch combo that other armies struggle to deal with, but no guarantees.

Footslogging Space Wolves will not win you games.  At minimum, you need Rhinos to get more distance quickly.  You can grab up a unit or two of those little Wolves, I forget their name, but they make a good immediate threat that allows your other units to position better without taking as many loses.  Speed and table control wins games as much as outright power.  Keep that in mind.

Typical choices for threats are pretty much everything you mentioned.  Vindicators might be taking a hit thanks to the removal of the blast template, we don't know.  Bikes and Jump packs are definitely a no in Wolves.  Unless the Claw units get a buff so they hit on 3+ like the rest of the Marines in the game, these are just not good enough.  Wolves are better at other things.  Keep in mind things like the Dreadnought now though.  We have seen their stats and they're not bad.  Most newer players use them and upgrade away from them as they choose what they want to go with.  A Predator tank is a common second step, focusing on long range if their attack units end up being too fast for Dreads to keep up with.

HQs are 100% up in the air right now.  We just don't know the bubble buffs that are coming in so if you want to play games now, choose a Sergeant looking model and make him a Wolf Guard Battle Leader until we see which way to go for Wolf HQs.  A Wolf Priest might be just the thing needed for a Blood Claw heavy army, or the Wolf Lord on a Wolf... already tired of typing out Wolf... may still reign supreme with Iron Wolves on more Wolves.  The difference between a Lord and Battle Leader are huge though.  It's the difference between a squad having two sergeants, no big whoop, to having a dangerous beatstick that your opponent will lose models to before the Lord goes down.  But, if you don't have the support to make a beatstick into a powerful unit that does Q mess of damage, you won't get the results you want.  Just a dead Lord and dead unit.

11
Discussion: Chaos Space Marines / Re: Traitor Legions!!
« on: May 12, 2017, 06:41:15 AM »
Keywords in 8th are going to be ridiculously important for CSM.  Just looking at the Datasheet for Rubrics, that's four Faction Keywords that hit, which might mean that HQs are more important than ever with bigger buffs depending on how focused you go.  The cool Formations might be gone, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the best Formation bonuses become bubble effects from certain characters giving the options, not the requirements, of what units get the buffs in that Faction Keyword.  But, this is just me being optimistic.

12
Shadow War is infinitely better than any sub-750pt game in terms of both gameplay and stories told.  If you want a taskforce to enter enemy territory at any point in your campaign, Shadow War will show it way better than 40k ever will.  There are some tweaks you can make to the Defenders in terms of army type, like Tyranid Gaunts being used as Sentries in missions where Orks would get additional models, making some common sense choices to translate Gaunts into the game.  Devourers gave rules and a points cost already, so you have the groundwork for non Warrior models.  I would suggest though that for every espionage or raid event you play, plan for four or more games of Shadow War, which should still only take the length of time of a single 2000pt game of 40k.  That way, even without further tweaks, you can also include armored Marines and more Ork choices in the game and winning or losing carries more weight instead of just a Scout squad got bipped.

13
Discussion: Eldar / Re: Eldar 8th preview
« on: May 11, 2017, 04:19:59 PM »
He specifically said that Alaitoc Rangers are going to be good, and I'm going to hold him to it.  That's what I want to play in Eldar and it was one of two lists that were nerfed with the current Eldar codex.  If he lies to us, I will be sad again.

14
Discussion: 40K Rumors / Re: Im sorry Fritz, your wrong.
« on: May 11, 2017, 03:11:50 AM »
Have you considered the new change to Twin Link?  Three Lascannon shots to kill a dread, okay, that's a Land Raider's side and a Razorback giving four shots of Lascannons.  What about the old favorite, Twin Linked Scatter Lasers on Wave Serpents?  Are we looking at eight shots from a single weapon on a tank?  That's a lot of firepower going downrange for a measly 115pts or whatever they'll change it to.  Eight Assault Cannon from a 75pt Razorback or eight Autocannon from a Rifleman Dread.  These aren't whimpy weapons, depending on the rend values but even a -1 is putting a Marine at 4+ or an Ork Eavy at 5+.  That makes a big difference in that volume.  On a specific basis, you're not getting more than one good armor save to a Lascannon.  That rend is too much.

I think some of your counters are valid, and horde armies are going to be able to cross the table again, but that's going all in on a concept, which in a balanced ruleset should be valid.  You use enough of one thing to overwhelm your opponent's plan to deal with that one while they're also dealing with things you didn't bring.  That's not a new idea.  That's what creates spam, and spam works.  Serpent Spam, Flyrant Spam, Riptide Spam, Knight Spam, they all made X in your opponent's army invalid while Y just had too many targets to deal with alone.  Yes, cross the table and you can start to control the game.  That's a fundamental concept even now, it's just a different way to do it.

Old guns change, yes, like the flamer might not, and I think should not, see much play anymore.  It's a poor tradeoff in my opinion to nuke only a single squad with a bunch of wounds instead of just negating all their armor and cover with sheer power.  The templates from my Flyrants might be falling off here soon because of the change.  But that doesn't mean that 20 AP3 or 2+ Poisoned Bolt rounds and 20 Plasma Gun rounds hitting on 4+ is something to laugh at.  Rapid fire is going to be scary as hell.  Get your Berzerkers close to that.

Point for point, Assault has the leg up if they can choose who to pick out.  If your opponent waits patiently and you don't have my horrible luck, you can force them to lose their good units for a turn or more.  But the shooter has options too.  They have the chance to charge you, they have the chance to bubble wrap better than ever, fighting you with 3" moves as you try to work around them like some friggin igar.io blobs trying to swallow each other, and they have the time to point guns at the assault, run away and unload on your unit in their face.  It looks more balanced than it was for shooting and assault, but from what we've seen so far, I think the difference is going to be those tanks and Twin linked staples of the game making the big guns the way to go.

15
General Discussion / Re: 40K 8th Edition Holding Pattern
« on: May 10, 2017, 12:40:07 AM »
I've gotten the extra push I needed to actively work on my Ultramarines.  To be honest, Battle Company wasn't my sort of army because while the concept was fluffy, in practice it was nearly as few models as possible instead of representing ten full squads led by a practical Captain.  Now though, Gulliman's changes revealed have him as my next model to buy and throwing out Formations means my precious Tyrannic War Veterans are likely getting the axe and invalidating the old Saint Tylus Formation.  Thinking about the probably unconfirmed rumors of the new starter set, I'm going to have a strong representation of the 1st and 3rd Companies led by the Primarch himself.  Looking at the Battalion Detachment means that I can already plan for that to be my starting point and filling that out properly now, then downgrading as points are revealed.  Three HQs in a Battalion means Captain Fabian, Chaplain Cassius and either a Librarian or Gulliman, depending on Guilliman's role.  Sure the small things like weapon choice are in the air, but considering I'm getting the starter box, have a nice selection of Heavies as is, I'm not worried about weapon choice like maybe I should be.

I think the holding pattern is broken for some armies.  I think we have a decent enough concept of things to get as we move ahead, like Tyranid Warriors are almost certainly going to see play now that things aren't doubled out.  Ork mech units are going to be tough beasts to bring down so Killa Kans might be worth collecting or dusting off.  The new promises in Imperial Guard give us some building blocks to push ahead towards, and though the CSM one was less revealing, we have reason to put paint to model on some units that we might have skipped over for a while now.

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