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Messages - Zeran

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It's a game and it is supposed to be fun, so if neither side is having any fun i think it's okay to call it.
But identify the mistakes that were made and learn from them.

I don't think the point of an apocalypse battle should be winning but rather just watching stuff blow up on both sides. Lots of your own and lots of theirs. Everyone should be told at the beginning that it's about having fun.
Still, balancing the mission a bit can't hurt.

About the lists... having an absolutely one-sided game is fun for neither side. Especially Superheavies have to be balanced on both sides since oftentimes you need other superheavies to take them down. Try and make sure every unit on the board can be countered somehow. Become the Co-Organizer and arrange the setting together. Talk to the organizer and the participants beforehand, maybe even have everybody submit their lists and then decide on who goes into which team with both "faction-leaders" in order to balance both sides. you can always find a narrative reason why some guys switch sides if you have to. Ignore the Allies-Matrix

If one side still positively has to get most superheavies and has to sit on the objectives like you described, change the Scenario and make it a horrible last stand for them where they are up against double their amount of points which come in from all sides.

Talk to each other and improve your next game together. ;)

I agree, communication on both sides was terrible. We basically chose to do whatever our organizer said that we can do without talking it over. I should have seen the issues of the game the moment I saw we were outnumbered 3 to 1 on super heavies and tried to figure out a better way to allow outflank without ruining the narrative. We should have all submitted our lists to the organizer and have him balance the game around what we had instead of just show up with x number of points, our group does a bad job of doing that.

Thanks for the tips, this helps out alot

When one side is holding they should score less points per obj held and a new player in that size game is bad for everyone, he may take that as what the game is and give up before he started. Any game that size needs at least 2 organisers, 1 per side.

It was alright for the new player, I explained to him that apoc games are crazy and we got swept up in it. After a pickup game he seemed fine. I did not think about an organizer for each side, that's a pretty good idea.

Thanks for the insight

This is a bit of a rant, but I wanted your opinions on how to prevent this from happening again.

This weekend I played a narrative Apoc game at my game store being organized by a guy whos been playing the game since it came out. A lot of the guys playing were pretty new to the game, but most of us got have been playing for 6 months or more so we got a good amount of the rules and each other's armies down. We were split into two teams (Chaos and Imperial) and we were set up with about 6000 points on each side. For the Chaos side, the team I played, we were to capture objectives by fighting through an Imperial city, we gain points by capturing these objectives. For the Imperial side, they already hold the objectives and they were to defend them to gain points at the end of their turn. The Chaos team elected me to be the leader and the organizer of the event was to be the Imperial leader. All of us were excited to play and we were hoping for a grand and cinematic battle that we will all remember.

Unless you were on the Chaos Team.

First the narrative was set up for us to lose. The Imperial side just had to sit and hold positions on the board that they already controlled, they would score points just by sitting on their objectives and roadblocking as they pleased. I was also not allowed to outflank onto their side of the board due to narrative reasons, which would not have been bad if my entire army was not based around outflanking/infiltration (I was playing Alpha Legion) and I committed at least half of all the points on my team, again most of us were still pretty new to the game so all they had were about 1000 points each.

Second, we had a completely new person join the group. It was almost his first game with a new army and he was excited to try to play it on the apoc game. Unfortunately all this did was take up time because our organizer insisted upon 30 minute turns and we had to rule check everything he did. He joined the chaos team, so we had to constantly switch from doing our own things and then help him play his army on our spare time. He did not know how to play his army, but I have, so I spent a good majority of my time helping him out. This made me miss several actions that my units can do.

Third, we did not have any super heavy vehicles. A lot of my team did not have the models that our opponents did. Our opponents had warhound titans, wraithknights, and knights. The biggest thing our team had was a single baneblade that we borrowed from the store. It was obliterated turn 2. That was basically our only vehicle and we were shot off the board quickly.

Excitement quickly shifted to disappointment from both sides, ours obviously and the opposing team expected Alpha Legion popping up from the sides all over the objectives, as they were not aware of the rules the organizer had put in place. The organizer attempted to give our side the momentum again by giving us free rolls to bring back dead units, but he specifically targeted the mentioned new player, which wiped out his whole units as soon as they came back. After 2 hours of getting destroyed it was the end of turn 2 and the score was 8 to 1 as we held the least scoring objective for 1 turn before we were driven off in a hail of d weapons. The organizer attempted to give us momentum again by allowing me to outflank into the lowest scoring region, but it was not going to help to even tie the game. I saw that my group was very unhappy and I called the game. The organizer tried to give us more incentives to continue, but I explained my reasoning and he accepted my views. We cleaned up the tables, set them back up to how they were originally, played regular pick up games, and acted like we did not play that game.

Was I wrong to end that game? I mean no one was having any fun and I rather save the time playing games I would enjoy. If we were to ever play this again, what are some tips to prevent this from happening again?

i recommend looking at alhpa legion with the lost and damned formation, which whenever a culitst unit dies ou get to roll 2 4+'s to spawn another unit in ongoing reserves, if you roll two 4+'s you get 2 more units, so can really go crazy on cultists, even when starting with minimum alpha legion :)

Yeah this interpretation of the rules is what drove me into making a cultist horde initially. That new FAQ really bummed me out when I read that the two rules do not stack in any way. But that means that if one of those rolls fail, I can use the other rule to psuedo reroll to revive the unit again. I won't get a 25% chance of gaining 2 units, BUT I do get a 75% chance of getting the unit back.

The Vrack's Undying Horde Detachment that the Chaos Renegades have is a 2+ of reviving a unit with outflank in ongoing reserves, which is a 83% chance of revival, plus they get really nice special weapons options as well as cultisty looking IG vehicles and setups.

Saw your cultist spam video, great vid, i have discovered recently that Alpha legion respawn cultist units on a 4+, with lost on the damned is another 4+ possibly spawning 2 units per 1 that dies, to need to take 1 core and 1 auxillary choice though but i watched a battle report where he ran out of cultists models.

Just to be clear, according to that latest FAQ, the Alpha Legion detachment rule does not stack with Lost and the Damned. However, I now interpret it as kinda of a reroll. If I fail one of the rolls, I can roll it again. The FAQ says it does not stack however, if I fail one of them I can then roll the other one. So you still get a 75% chance of reviving the unit of cultists. Still useful, but I find to really get this working you need min squads of cultists to die constantly. A huge 35 blob of cultists won't go down fast enough to really get to use Alpha Legion rules to full effect. Due to that compulsory champion you get less cultists with min squads so in my Alpha Legion lists I mix 35 large blobs for threatening firepower in the center of the board (Body of the Hydra) and smaller min squads with a flamer or stubber infiltrating all around the map (Heads of the Hydra)

I literally started up 40k about 3 months ago and I always wanted to make a horde human army. I want to make the board flood with hundreds of models to make every one of my battles looks like a last stand against a numberless enemy. I don't have to win, I just want every one of these games to feel and look amazing.

At first I attempted Genestealer Cult with a spam summon list, but it was not reliable enough to really get that numberless horde feel. Then Traitor Legions came out and I read the Alpha Legion's ambiguous rules for respawning cultists twice (FAQ dashed my dreams but I figured something else out). I knew then that I wanted to make a massive cultist army whose power comes from it's sheer body count.

A few weeks later this happened:

This is about 290 cultists from literally all over the world and to be honest I need almost 300 more to get to the list I really want to make. A 3000 point Chaos Renegade list with over 540 cultists posing as renegades. Basically its 37 squads of 15 man units with a meltagun in each and 3 leman russes for some firepower. All the squads get revived into ongoing reserve with outflank on a 2+ when destroyed or routed.

A link to the list here specifics to the list here

Right now I am looking for cheap cultists from the Dark Vengeance Set since it has the most varied cultists models. I have exhausted all of my usual websites and bitz stores so I am always on the lookout. Also I am looking to get about 100-150 of the convert bodies for renegade militia (both 100+ of the regular and 40 enforcer ones) from forge world so if anyone knows of any of them I can get for cheap that would be cool too.

To be honest, I can't really find a better full cultist list or ways of finding more cultist models. I kinda want opinions on what I have in mind or maybe even better ways of slapping on more cultists into the list. After that video today, I felt like this would be the best place to brainstorm new ideas.

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