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Messages - SharkoutofWata

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Discussion: Orks / Re: Ork Psychic question
« on: July 20, 2017, 04:36:16 PM »
Natural double 1s and double 6s are always Perils, no matter what mods are included.  Mods that lower a score or raise a score below 2 or higher than 12 do not Perils.

Raven Guard is hands down the most powerful. It outright breaks a lot of opponents passively, forcing them to do something that their army might not be set up for. Forcing them to advance hard when maybe they didn't want to. Rock, paper, scissors is the name of the game and Raven Guard now have more armies where they can be the favorable matchup against. After fighting against Ghostkeels and Tau suits, -1 to hit can get crippling, even for Marine armies that have good BS. Plasma in particular because ridiculously dangerous thanks to how mods are now. Moving and firing with Heavy Weapons, multi wound model deterioration, suddenly you're hitting on 6s and the unit that does that is no longer a problem while they try to close the distance and be useful again.

Salamanders are a close second though but it's not because of them being more favorable in matchups. They simply don't have to rely as hard on aura buffs, which is a big benefit in army building. Being able to reroll hits, wounds and still have the CP reroll for Damage is a big bonus that will see a lot of use on things like Lascannon Dreads and Devastators. Yes, a better effect can be done with a Chapter Master equivalent but that's a lot of points for a babysitter unit, especially when we're talking about a backfield support unit. It's a good improvement to an army and there's very few times it won't do some sort of benefit.

Scars and Ultramarines are my next choices depending on the playstyle of the player, but both are 'build around or miss out' options. It's not like you can just throw in an Assault Cannon Dread and think that's good enough to Fall Back and shoot with as an Ultramarine. Hitting on 5s, whoop-de-do... For me, it's exactly what I want to match the playstyle I already use, but that's just a happy coincidence.

Imperial Fists are so strict that I'm not expecting much from them. It works great against Scouts and Lictors and... I'm having a hard time thinking of other models that get legitimately tougher in Cover. I feel like it's a minor buff at best, better than nothing, but not good enough to skew matchups in your favor. I've found that for the majority of my horde units that would benefit from cover, the units are too big to actually be fully in thenterrain and I just can't be bothered.

Iron Hands I definitely am not impressed by. A 6+ FNP is a slim chance. It's not going to save a Dreadnought that took a Lascannon to the face. It will take some luck tohave it impact the game at all, but it doesn't actually affect the army in any way. You don't build around that ability. If Iron Hands could use it on their vehicles too I'd be a little warmer to it, but it's just Infantry, Bikes and Dreadnoughts and I'd rather take something else with more of a chance of success.

An Edit: looks like the Iron Hands got a Strategem for being able to move and shoot Heavy weapons without penalty for moving, even on their vehicles.  While not a Chapter Tactic, that's a seriously powerful ability.  I wonder if the less useful Tactics will get beefy Strategems to make up for it.

40K Rules Questions / Re: Repairing vehicles
« on: July 19, 2017, 12:15:32 PM »
Models in transports are not on the table.  They don't have the ability to do anything unless the rules say specifically that the ability can be used while on a transport.

Discussion: Dark Angels / Re: 8th Edition Dark Angels Army list
« on: July 04, 2017, 09:42:23 PM »
Because you're going against competitive armies I'll treat it as a competitive list and tear it apart properly, cause from a power standpoint, there is a lot to be desired.

What's the point of the Patrol?  You're doing nothing with the Tacticals as far as I can see and the Devs are only modest.  Frankly, I think you're putting too many points into big fancy characters that give fairly basic buffs.  Samael is good and all and of the three I think he would be more valuable with your army playstyle from what I'm seeing here, but having three big names at 2k is excessive.  Commit to one, drop the other down to an Interrogator Chaplain or Company Master depending on if you're going for a stabby or shooty unit for the character.

In my experience playing against Dark Angels, you need to commit to a playstyle and theme.  Going down the middle just means your units are weak and you can't hold any real section of the table.  I've had way more trouble against either Greenwing, Deathwing OR Ravenwing, but I've haven't been stopped by a mix of the three.

The deathwing Squad is the Dark Vengeance set obviously and that's a poor build now.  Assault Cannons from a unit without ignoring the -1 BS is putting out a whole whopping two wounds before armor against MEQ, and at only a whimpy -1, they've got a good chance to save it.  It's worse against bigger things obviously and absolutely abysmal against things that give a further -1 to your BS, as a lot of armies are capable of.  Even Twin Assault Cannons are garbage now point for damage.  The Chainfist is two extra points of eh and in a competitive list it doesn't need to be there.  I like it for the guaranteed average damage, but frankly this whole unit doesn't need to be there.

The Deathwing Knights have a purpose, I'll grant you that.  They're beefy and hard to kill and a bad roll for your opponent means they are there to stay.  Incredibly annoying to have to put down but without some real support...  I've hated seeing a unit of them with an Interrogator Chaplain and Ancient and they can usually just flat out murder whatever they don't like.  Hitting on 3s with their Mace is a bigger bonus than I had given them credit for, but they need that extra attack to really do some slaughtering, which means the Ancient has to make the charge too.  Not an easy task every time so your mileage will vary compared to my opponent who slaps them in a Land Raider Crusader.

The Dreadnought hits on 3s after moving with its six shots...  I'm less than thrilled.  Autocannons or bust if you ask me.  Less shots, more Rend, twice the damage.  Taking an Assualt Cannon over the Autocannon is a poor choice.  I'd look pretty hard at the Deredeo though if your area does Forge World.  Lots of Autocannons.

Samael will make your Ravenwing more powerful.  A Ravenwing Apothecary will make them last longer.  The two together will be annoying as all hell to kill.  You don't get an Invul, which is why I say Ravenwing is the weakest of the three, but that doesn't mean Ravenwing are weak.  If you build up a Black Knight squad right witht he right character support, they can just walk through whatever they want to walk through.  Hang out at max range and blast with some Plasma Talons and MEQ won't stand a chance while reviving your own guys.  I can't stress enough how annoying that is to have friggin reviving multiwound models.

The Ravenwing squad needs to just be dropped in favor of more Black Knights.  Why are you taking the whimpy little brothers and still trying to put Plasma on them?  If they were Melta, we could talk, but it's worse versions of the Black Knights, plain and simple.

Land Speeders are one of either two things.  Long distance gunners that have the ability to move only when they absolutely must, or close range burners with Twin Heavy Flamers to rack up some hits before they die horribly.  Yours are neither and won't accomplish much now that they move and hit on 4s.

Ezekiel and the Tacs need to just be dropped.  They don't help in any way, shape or form.  Use the optional slots in the other two detachments if you want more stuff.

A trick with Devestators is another Apothecary on foot and some extra dudes in the Devs squad.  Seven models or so.  Now, the Devs have extra guys to burn and the Apothecary can maybe pick them back up.  Turn your squad into 2+ armor 7 regen Wounds of annoyance in cover.  With your lack of long range stuff, I'd keep them all at Lascannons and see what you can kill.  There should always be targets for four very healthy shots.

So with these changes in mind but not adding up points, I'd be looking at:
Interrogator Chaplain in Terminator Armor
Deathwing Knights w/ Watcher
Deathwing Ancient (maybe)
Ravenwing Apothecary
Venerable Dreadnought (maybe)

Samael On Bike
Black Knights
Black Knights
Land Speeder with Flamers

Alternatively, if points are really bad, drop the Speeder and just shove it all into the Vanguard Detachment.  Takes a hit on CPs but it's doable and you have zero tax units that way.  I've kept a single backfield unit for an Objective with their Apothecary, a high threat Speeder to maybe take some fire away from your Black Knights and the now three meaty units with Samael hopefully buffing both squads at once and the Apothecary bouncing between them as needed and the Deathwing being Turn 1 pressure from Deep Strike.  Hopefully I haven't removed too much of the flavor in your playstyle with my advice but I definitely think you'll bump up competitive level.

Discussion: Dark Angels / Re: Thoughts on the Dark Angels in 8th
« on: July 01, 2017, 04:01:53 PM »
My regular opponent is Dark Angels and they have strong builds.  Greenwing led by Azrael with Darkshrouds; Belial, Interrogator Chaplains and Terminators does work and Ravenwing while gimped compared to 7th are still quality units.  In my experience though, I can walk all over any combination of the three but have to rely on luck if only one of the three are in play.  They don't buff each other well and need very different tactics, but at 2k of a single Company, they're quality. 

Greenwing is very good at traditional tactics with screen units, tanks with Invuls from Azrael, a ridiculous amount of ways to screw with your opponent's getting their shots to deal damage but because the clump is only as fast as the slowest unit, it's not as aggressive as some could hope.  But most armies with vehicles will have to stay still to even have a decent chance of hitting what the Darkshrouds protect.  Hitting on a 6+ from a Chimera or Leman Russ sponsons?  No thanks, I'll just stay put and struggle.

Deathwing don't have the true mobility but they can apply Turn 1 Deep Strike pressure with units that just won't friggin go down.  Force me to be reactionary instead of on the offensive, and that can quickly change the game.  If luck is on my side and the mission allows me to breakout and get mobile again, I usually can but it's not an easy task.  If luck is against me then I have to buckle down and fight it out, and of my armies only my Nids are unphased by 3++ Terminators since our weapons only have a -1 Rend normally anyway.  We have no downside compared to other more AP armies firing at Storm Shielded Terminators.  A unit of them, Chaplain, Ancient and Apothecary is friggin hard to put down, all piling out of a Crusader...  Very annoying to kill.  I've had them walk right through my Chaos and was only able to bring them down by Falling Back with four units that couldn't finish the job and blasting full bore with a Land Raider at the last Chaplain for Warlord and Game.  Nothing else was killing it.

Ravenwing is in my opinion the weakest of the three, but that's not saying they are actually weak.  Jink is dead now and Darkshrouds do that job better, but Plasma Talons are some serious pricks.  Against Vehicle armies they don't do that much but against infantry and occasional monsters, they wreck them.  Throw in some Melta Bikes and they get more Take All Comers but while they have the mobility, they don't have that much survivability.  Good targeting can put them down and the hate that Bikes get in regards to cover is pretty significant.  They can't toe-in a crater anymore.  It's far from impossible, but there's more unfavorable matchups.

It's not a Twin Lascannon, it's one.  So the platform is 120pts all told with a single shot, when a Razorback is 115pts with an actual Twin Lascannon.  Slight decrease in stats, but twice the shots and transports small units which you have.  Frankly, the Hunter is just too expensive for the little bit it does.  I'd rather take that Razorback, some Devestators, Dreadnought with Las/Missile, literally anything that does more shots.  With as many Wounds as things have now, one shot is a drop in the bucket and a lot of things can make it fizzle into 'not worth the trouble' territory.

Discussion: THE LIST / Re: Chaos - Deathguard - 1500 pts
« on: June 28, 2017, 12:27:27 PM »
You're very VERY light on anti armor.  Once the Defiler dies, and things die fast this Edition, you're going to be about out of things that can actually do damage.  I'd drop one of each character and support your army with another heavy hitter.  A tank of some kind that isn't a Vindicator.  I'd personally go with a Predator, but arguments can be made for anything from Helbrutes to Forge World stuff.  it all depends on the missions you play though.  Eternal War, this sort of army I've been seeing perform well.  Maelstrom, not so much.  Nurgle is slow and needs long range capabilities while the Bloats apply pressure.

So I held off posting until I played against them properly, because while I was given a competitive rundown, my unfamiliarity with the army meant I was likely to get some units wrong.  Now that I can properly put names to faces, I'm more confident saying what I've seen.  AdMech are friggin ridiculously good.  There's no ifs ands or buts about it and the only reason to complain about anything is that you have to pay for your guns now.  Certain units took hits, there is no denying that, but the army overall is ridiculous.  It is what Tau wish they could be.

The Kastellan Robots alone fire 18 S6 -2 shots PER MODEL, all of which can be healed by a little dude hanging around them.  Each Plasma Heavy Servitors is putting out D6 shots in Spam numbers that losing some to overheating is a tiny price to pay.  Long range Lascannons on the shooty Dragoons and a Knight Crusader means you have all the bases covered in a shooting army.  Healing is practically guaranteed between Cawl and the little HQ guy I don't remember the name of, though I was pleased to find out that they can't heal the Knight so I could kill it even while rolling poorly.  You're clear to turtle up hard and remove a ridiculous amount of the enemy on Turn 1.  I'd have been tabled smoothly if I hadn't gotten first turn using my Ultramarines.  And my opponent, who is admittedly one of the top AdMech players in the ITC circuit, had just finished tabling Eldar Wraiths.

I don't know how much fluff is in an AdMech army simply because I never cared about the Faction, but unless you really love the robotic ninjas, I can't imagine there being a problem with how much damage this army can dish out.  Those robots though, they put the fear of the Omnissiah in me and you can be sure I focused them down before anything else.  They might look derpy, but that's a scary friggin unit right there and will keep hordes at bay.

The point of this one is so that you can replace the Storm Bolter with a Shield and still get the Cyclone.  You can't trade the Storm Bolter for a Shield and trade that same Storm Bolter for a Cyclone and Storm Bolter or other heavy weapon.  You've already gotten rid of it.  You won't ever have the extra Storm Bolter in this case because you are taking a Cyclone outside of the 'replace' list.

The Long Fang blah blah can never take a Storm Shield.  It's not in his lists of things to take.  He can take one item from the melee weapons list to replace the sword and a Combi or Heavy weapon.  From a gameplay perspective, this makes sense.  The unit is meant to be shooty and with wound allocation at your choice, the player would tank so many high AP value wounds onto a friggin 3++ model, protecting the whole squad.  I'm sure this was intentional.

Discussion: Dark Angels / Re: Deathwing and Cyclone Missile Launcher
« on: June 23, 2017, 12:00:09 PM »
As silly as it is, RAW allows you to do practically whatever you want.  It says you may TAKE a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Weapon, not replace anything for these options.  Look at the vanilla Terminator squad and there they use 'replace'.  So you can have a model with a TH/SS/Cyclone/Storm Bolter or 2x Storm Bolters, Cyclone and Chainfist.  I wouldn't model anything with these weapon options though, cause that's gotta change on codex release.  But, as written, that's how it is right now.

40K Rules Questions / Re: 8th ed questions
« on: June 22, 2017, 05:35:56 PM »
1) No restriction means no restriction.  Feels wrong to be able to, but I'm also not seeing any reason why you shouldn't be able to.  Looks like powers are okay to use at any time other than when in transports.

2) You can definitely charge units you can't see.  The Day 1 FAQ, Developer's Commentary or whatever they're calling it, specifically says that the intention is that you can.  Just keep in mind that only Infantry can pass through ruins walls and every other unit type has to go around them.

Discussion: Blood Angels / Re: The new 8th Ed. BA Units
« on: June 22, 2017, 01:47:48 AM »
I could not disagree any harder.  Without an Invul, models die so fast that it's not often worth the effort and there's better units point for point that I want to spend my CP reroll on from a Deep Strike charge.  Any competent player will screen good units with bad ones, making a significant learning curve but when they do it right and fallback or die in Blood Angel's turn, the Sanguinary Guard evaporate.  The risk and reward from an Assault kill is pretty unforgiving for both players and I'm sure the meta will settle with the winner being cheap units that can be sacrificed after their strike without costing you an arm and a leg.  We got that market cornered with Death Company.

Vindicators are not what they should be.  They are a failure.  4+ to hit with D3 shots after moving, D6 only if the unit is 5+ models.  I've seen them act as midfield control but they are hard countered by a single Land Raider or similar unit.  Even three of them is scary for about a single turn, then they're outpositioned or outranged.  If they could shoot at full BS after moving or if they stayed at D6 shots always, they'd be very very good units, but as they stand, they're little more than gun emplacements and targets.  I've fought against them twice now and been on the table next to them three times and each time they have been abysmal.  With the faulty BS they're not real squad killers and with the low amount of shots they're not Vehicle/Monster killers.  They just missed the mark by a smidge but it shows HARD.

You shouldn't compare Dante to Azrael.  Dante is 100% a beatstick while Azrael is a buff character.  Comparing a sword to a screwdriver.  Yes you can poke people with both and yes you can turn a screw with both, but they are made for their roles.  Dante just makes the murder and does it very very well.  I want to try out the Sanguinor in a list though to see how they compare.  I'm seeing some good possibilities from that model, and for cheaper.  I actually expect him to be more viable than Dante because of the price.

I haven't actually tried out the pistols for the same reason though.  Points.  I have a hard time bothering with pistols in general when there's no penalty to Bolters and combat rarely lasts till my next turn.  When it does, I'd rather fall back and pop the now freed up unit with something really meaty, like a Land Raider or Baal Predator.  If something has survived my many many attacks for most Blood Angel units I field, I need a D6 weapon to come finish the job.  I've noticed my army almost entirely consists of CCWs or full bodied Special/Heavy Weapons.

Priest is an autoinclude.  Even just bumping one unit to S5 means wounding on 3s.  And the Narthecium rules are GOOD.  Terminators, Sanguinary Guard, Characters, they all benefit so much from having that ability to heal every turn.  Even in a different style list, Devestator squads of 8~ with a Priest hanging out next to them means four ablative wounds that keep coming back.  That's no laughing matter right there.  There is almost always a reason to take a Priest in whatever sort of list you're building somewhere in there.

Discussion: Painting / Re: Glaze leaves shiny "water stain"
« on: June 21, 2017, 09:31:20 PM »
As far as I know, that's the desired effect of a glaze. At least that's why I use it over a wash in certain applications. For a wash you are using too much of it in one spot. But a glaze is for a more 'living' surface like plasma coils or lenses or that type of thing. That is just my personal experience but I'm a pretty basic painter.

The Start Collecting box is the full kits of every thing pictured so you'll get the transfers for the CSM squad and the Terminator Lord.  I don't know if the Helbrute comes with transfers since they were so atrocious previously I never bothered to pick one up outside of the 7th Edition Starter.  They're good units now though so you don't have to worry about that.

You're right that there's lots of room for flexibility.  You have to put some thought into what HQs are going to try to stick to what units, but overall you won't have to worry about a complicated army being complicated to build.  What sort of playstyle were you looking at?

Forge World is expensive and shipping is even more expensive, but it's no more difficult than ordering something foreign off eBay.  Play groups might do some mass orders from time to time, to avoid shipping costs, so check local Facebook groups or stores to see how the people in your area get Forge World.  Remember though that Forge World is optional.  Most people make do with the transfers included in the boxes.

It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that every last Keyword has to match for every single unit in a Detachment.  One keyword has to match.  Imperium.  From there you can take whatever you want.

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