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Discussion: Eldar / Re: New codex 8th ed incoming... share the gossip
« Last post by mcphro on Today at 08:33:38 AM »
Excuse me for writing a bit, but just needed to uppack.

Ok, it been a few days and some of the rules are becoming more clear. I'm not going to post every single difference, but there are a few nice standouts I like personally. Not so much because of strategems (though they are very nice as well), but I just like the points changes and balances to the units themselves.

The Avatar
It is now invincible. In any Eldar game you should be going in with at least 12 command points. (3 battalions can be done for 750 points unless you can fill out a brigade style detachment). A lot of excellent strategems are only 1 or 2 points. So each time the avatar dies (and it will never be alone because it's a character with less then 10 wounds) you spend 3 command points and (the rest of the enemy shots are wasted) it comes back to life with D6 wounds... and away you go again!

Dire Avengers
So think about it. It's about 105 points (cant see new points costs for weapons) under current rules. But for 120 points you get 10 Dire Avengers with the 18" Range, better armour (stand-in cover) with the Aspect Warrior keyword that allows strategems to affect them. Buy Asurman and give them all a 4++ save (I think)

Far out, think warp spiders are annoying - these guys HAD to come down in points. 60 for 5 is a good price for (altoic of course). Buy 6 for the Troops of a Brigade Detachment, and these buys have something like at least a -2 to hit. Place them all over the middle ground in cover and snipe out those characters. They will also act as an effective screen for those units trying to get to your backfields units. I'll happily sacrifice a ranger unit to charge a land raider and the like etc and tie it up in CC.

Howling Banshees
In 7th these girls were improved. In 8th they got even better. Banshees are now everything they were ever supposed to be. SO fast, they can charge up to 15", cant hit first in combat (who cares charging units go first anyway and that is our game) and they cannot have overwatch fired against them. But even better they become like Harlequins, where they can charge after they have advanced. Use strategems to give them a free 6" movement on top.

They can actually move faster than any transport transporting them!

Swooping Hawks
This unit has also improved out of sight. 24" Assult 4 Str 3 Lasguns, the usual swooping hawk shenanigans, but with these guys you own the board. Movement 14", can cause mortal wounds (but you have to get good at positioning on this and I wouldn't rely on it), but for me, 3 of these units is going to remove all those 'soak units like conscripts' that other armies place in front of them.3 units of 5 put out 60 shots a turn.

I can easily see 3 x war spiders, 3 swooping hawks working together to be a massive pain in the butt for the opponent. If you add barraroth I think they all reroll 1's too.

Warp Spiders
I've seen on reviews that 1 person said this unit isn't good anymore. I cannot disagree more. They can deep strike again, flickerjump gives them a -1 to hit again and a unit of 5 puts out 10 Str 6 rending shots. 3 units of these for me are about rolling up peoples flanks. I've seen they have got cheaper by about 4 points a model. If true this still puts a unit of 5 under 100 points. But its is how you use them that counts. Exarch can only take 2 deathspinners I think.

First, Warp into cover. Buy them as an outrider detachments and suck a warlock for the leader tax. Now they are altioc warp spiders with a -1 to hit unless the enemy unit is under 12''. Add this to the cover save of -1. Then, you can use strategems or warlock powers like conceal to pile on even more. Warp spiders will become THAT unit, the one that 3 units warp into your flank into -1 cover, shooting 30 x Str 6 shots that rend into their target (3 x 5 man units) and then will be hard to remove or do too much damage to them. Objective takers.

Are their better units. Of course. But these guys give you the strength and rending that swooping hawks cant deal with. They can also screen your

Dark Reapers
Already a good unit they have been made cheaper and this is awesome. You always hit on 3's. But points cost has always been their issue. It remains to be seen how much cheaper, but Space marines, bikes should quake in fear of this unit. 2 wounds at -2 is awesome. But it is their rule of inescapable accuracy. Have modifiers to hit a unit... not any more. They ALWAYS hit on 3's.

War Walkers
Buy 3 war walkes in a squadron with shuriken cannons in a beil tan detachment, Use a farseer to DOOM a unit, then guide the war walkers and sit back and enjoy. The point behind this unit is I dont see all the rules as overpowered. Im not saying this set up for war walkers will specifically ruin peoples days or will wipe units. But if not dealt with they will be a reliable source of firepower that will pile on the wounds. Use the Farseer for real potential however. This is because they are a squadron.

Beil tan: reroll 1's.
Guide: reroll ALL misses
Doom: reroll all wounds.

This means you get 18 shots with 12 hits. With reroll you should get 4 more hits = 16 hits.
Vs T4 = 10.67 wounds. reroll wounds is 3.56 more wounds. = 14.22 wounds for 18 shots. around 3 of those should be at -4.

Over 5 turns thats 71 wounds. The issue with war walkers for the enemy is just that they usually just are not a priority target. The enemy will have to go out of their way to deal with them normally where you have so many other higher priority targets to deal with.

Assassination squad
You can leave them in this configuration or give them all bright lances though they will be more expensive. But another option is now war walkers outflank, you deploy them on the flank of the enemy next to a juicy target. If the enemy deploys his characters or armour wrong, you walk in (Altoic warwalkers of course) and stand in cover. Now your -2 to hit and have 6 bright lances to shoot at a close character or Baneblade etc. Perhaps a shuriken cannon/ bright lance combo for the flexibility and to save on points.

A detachment of 3 wraithlords now at T8 that really helps. Run them as a Iyanden detachments however and they will will fight at full strength till they only have a 3 wounds left.

I wont go into him much here, except to say his weapon is now Str 16, which means he wounds pretty much everthing in the game on 2's and not 3's now.

Are 50 points cheaper - Yes please! they may still have to find their place vs so many other unit choices.

Vauls support...Support weapons
50 points cheaper just like they should have been. (Compare to astra militarum 12pt mortar). Vibrocannons may finally have a place as they are D3 shots with increasing Ap and Str. A battery of 3 might set you back 160 points, but you get (3 x D3 (potentially 9 shots) Str 7 (upto Str 9 for the 3rd battery - upto 3 at Str 7 -1, 2 damage, upto 3 at Str 8, -2, 2 damage and upto 3 at Str 9, -3, 2 damage).

Compare that to a Farseer casting executioner. Someone is happy to pay 170 points for a Farseer on a bike to cast an enhanced Smite. These things if set up right have a 48" range and I think are well placed to pile on wounds onto important squads like Dark Angels Dark Shrouds. Sure you will suffer the -1 to hit, but every wound that goes through is a potential 2 damage. Terminators etc - look out. Hey, buy the Farseer anyway and guide them.

It might be overkill, but what is the potential of 3 units of 3 batteries of Vibrocannons? 6 wounds each means your looking at 18 wounds for a battery of 3 models. For only 450 points, your looking at 54 wounds of T6 that can spit out potentialy 18 shots of Str 7, 8 and 9) at 48". Combine with 3 Fire Prisms with an effective infantry screen and are we looking at the new Imperial guard? (All Altioc of course).

Fire Prisms
Wow, I now have to buy 3. I dont really want to move the model. Give me 3 vehicles with 6 shots og Str 12 AP -5 (yes -5) and D6 damage. But what they really give you now is a way to hide 2 other prisms, and use the Strategem that lets you strike with all 3 vs that baneblade that are all reroll to hit and wound I think as well. This... is the Death Star 3!

Even better, these things can double shot the other fire modes.

New weapoon profile as a result of moving under half: (my guide):

Dispersed 60" Heavy 2D6, Str 6, AP -3, 1 damage.
Focused  60" Heavy 2D3, Str 9, AP -4, D3 damage. (most of the time, would you use this profile? With 3 vehicles doing this, thats 6D3 shots. On average 12 shots at Str 9, -4, D3)
Lance 60" Heavy 2, Str 12, AP -5, D6 damage.

Hemlock Wraithfighter
Now Str 12  - online poeple are asklng why but it's just like the wraithcannon on a wratihknight, It's not that its Str 12, they have just made it so it can wound T6 on 2's, that's all. Its not that great of an upgrade. But the unit has been upgraded none the less. Other major change is besides smite is can only use the opposite power of warlock powers now)

Im out to lunch. Not my main units in an eldar army, but if your Samm-Hann then you will love scatter lasers again.

There is a lot more to this codex, and I see that we will create an update a 8th Eldar Tactica at the top of the page like we have done befoe showcasing all the different units, and potential nasty strategies.

I say nasty strategies because wow have we now got flexability through the craftworld attributes where people seem to agree that Altioc is the best one. But it is the strategems that I havent even really covered here. Want upto 3 units that normally cant to Deep strike in using the warp - Done! yes you can do that.

Want a vehicle to come in via deepstrike in another turn, yes you can do that.

so so many excellent strategems.... Cant wait till the book comes out proper.

Thank you for excusing my ramblings. I cant wait to see what tricks people come up with that we haven't considered.

- my 2 cents
General Discussion / Re: Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Last post by Izzycat218 on Today at 02:21:08 AM »
Currently I have 5000 pts of tau and 1500ish of Nids. As far as play style goes I'm more on the aggressive side of the line.
General Discussion / Re: Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Last post by SharkoutofWata on Today at 12:42:51 AM »
In the current Edition, consistency is king.  It used to be that Mobility won out with even poor armies working out as long as they had the units that could get where they needed to be, but now consistency is the name of the game.  If you consistently deal damage, consistently survive, consistently get where you need to go, consistently overwhelm what your opponent can reasonably put out, you will win and usually win on Turn 1 with the rest of the game just a cleaning up operation.

The reason that advice is usually X is better just stems down to the plain mathematical fact that X is in fact better.  It pushes more damage through, it earns its points back, it requires attention or whatever way that that unit does things, it will do that thing nearly every game you play.  Anything less than X's level is not worth consideration.  Nine times out of ten, the person saying X is better has either heard that it is better or just has that gut feeling that it is better or some non-math combination of the two, but the mathhammer should still reflect the result.  I don't know the math on two units of Hellblasters supported by Gulliman and a Relic Banner, but I know for damn sure that it's the best use of Gulliman while keeping him mobile and in use all game. 

The issue though with a talk like this is that it doesn't and can't take into account your differences in playstyle compared to mine.  For instance, that Gulliman Hellblaster group doesn't perform as well for me because I am a primarily defensive player and spring traps when I have the chance, so I get less from them than a fully aggressive 'let them die' player because I am too conservative.  It doesn't make the unit a wrong choice, it doesn't make a unitless competitive but it doesn't make a unit more right than say my Captain supported Sergeant Chronus in a Land Raider.  My playstyle is better suited for one than the other, and that can get lost in the black and white that most competitive conversations turn into.
Discussion: Astra Militarum / Re: Fuzzy rule writing
« Last post by russellmoo on Today at 12:07:42 AM »
Most of my guard lists have all been combinations of various guard regiments- not really due to any attempt to power game but because over the course of 20 years of playing guard, I have amassed a very diverse set of infantry and characters- meaning while I have 6+ cadian squads, I also have 3 Tallarn inf. squads, 4 catachan squads, 3 steel legion squads, plus heavy weapon teams in all 4 flavors. So I have for the first time in years actually played the models according to what regiment they physically represent.

Personally, I like pairing Tallarn for movement, and Cadian for shooting, plus Catachan artillery- and meat shield.
General Discussion / Re: Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Last post by russellmoo on October 21, 2017, 11:47:50 PM »
Without knowing what army you are playing it is going to be difficult to offer a solid response. Different armies play differently- as they should.

For starters-

When it comes to competitive list building or tournament style lists you have 3 options all seek to maximize firepower/durability and take advantage of certain in game mechanics-

Horde style list- this list features large units of dirt cheap bodies accompanied with some form of extremely effective/efficient wound delivery system (meaning tons of "smite" or str 7, 8, 9 weapons with re-rolls to hit.

Elite style list- this list focuses solely on quality over quantity- usually the unit or units that combine durability with high damage output

Gimmick lists- This list uses the rules set to max advantage- such as stacking -1 to hit modifiers and character rules- e.g. Assassin spam.

Post your preferred army- and I'm sure more help will be forthcoming.
General Discussion / Re: Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Last post by Izzycat218 on October 21, 2017, 05:25:45 PM »
I've asked them and have gotten nothing from them unfortunately. Figured I'd try my luck here. Thanks for the response though:)
General Discussion / Re: Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Last post by Eryx_UK on October 21, 2017, 04:10:09 PM »
Even after playing 40K for 30 years I still don't fully understand list construction. I'm a fluffy/narrative player who takes what feels right for the army and/or individual unit. I try to consider weapon strengths and weaknesses although 8th has largely done away with weaknesses thankfully. Everyone has a different view whether something is or isn't worth the points or abilities. Although under 8th I find it is less about the list so much as looking at what your opponent has fielded and understanding where you need to focus fire.

My recommendations are this are as follows. If you are a casual player then play casual. Learn through playing what does and doesn't work. My other suggestion is do what you've sort of mentioned in your post and ask those competitive players for their advice. They'll leap on the opportunity to help you get better at the game and your list building.

Good luck.
General Discussion / Loosing in the list construction phase.
« Last post by Izzycat218 on October 21, 2017, 08:50:36 AM »
Title says it all. Most othe time my games are decided in the deployment phase when I get to see the other player's list. I try to stay in that sweet spot in between casual and competitive. Unfortunately most of the people I play with bring competitive casual list so usually my list is too soft so to speak and the game is decided turn three.

When I started playing none of the local vets went through list construction with me so I've been trying to find what works, but I've reached the stage where I'm tried of being steamrolled every game.

Any suggestions on resources to look into. Not many articles go into the reasoning why x is better than Y in a given codex its mainly always take X period with no explanation.

Thanks for any replies.
Discussion: Black Templars / Re: Custom Black Templar Dice ready for 8th edition
« Last post by Albrecht on October 20, 2017, 09:27:23 PM »
Hi there, just wondering if you guys had any Templar dice that you wanted to sell off or if you would be happy to get another order as I am keen to buy some Black Templar themed dice.
Discussion: Eldar / Re: New codex 8th ed incoming... share the gossip
« Last post by mcphro on October 20, 2017, 01:23:20 PM »
Just watched the warhammer community twitch where they went throughbthebcodex.

Now, so you are aware of the main changes...

1. Points drop across the board... dire avengers 12pts...down from 18... scouts 12pts down fron 20
2. Avatar basically cant be killed. It has a strategem thta lets it pick characters out in shooting. And for 3cp you can bring it back to life woth d6 wounds... multiple times...
3. Falcons dropped 50 points
4. Dark reapers dropped in points and are cheaper
5. A lot of people will choose altioc for the minus 1 bs to enemy shooting thats further tbat 12''
6. Ynaari armies... lose any craft world special abilities... but that's ok because of the drop in points across the board. 
7 Phoenix lords now buff their aspects like they should. They do not benefit at all from craftworld abilities as they dont belong to a craftworld
8. Banshees can pull off a 15 inc charge by rolling a 10 as they get extra movement. You now cant fire overwatch at banshees which is a old rule anyway
9. Warlocks powers pretty good. There is a power called quickening.... cast it on a unit and it gets a d6 movement in psychic phase.
10. So many flexible deployment options
11. Warp spiders can now warp jump in 9'' away
12. Swooping hawks now excellent stand out unit.  Assault 4 weapons now plus usual tricks
13. Strategems allowing special deployment on 1 unit as in web way assault... e.g place a unit like wraith guard 9'' away on deployment
14. They were pretty keen to give the advice... you are after lots of command dice here. Brigades and battalions... Brigade style formations.
15. Warlocks conclave with 7 warlocks do d6 wounds with smite
16. night spinners cheaper now
17. Autarch can refund command points on 6s
18. Went through farseer powers... eldrich storm wasnt there. Mind war... executioner was
19. All troops bar guardians like 60 points.
20. I thought i heard them say a lot of aspects under 100 points?
21. Previous index was was..... look like most units are cheaper now. Some quite dramatically
22. Fire prisms are amazing double shot of moved less than half movement
23. War walkers can now outflank on sides of board
24. Did i say things got cheaper?
25. Brigade unit can be made for 1100 points.
Was made up off 2 warlocks 3 ranges 3 dire avengers 3 swooping hawk 3 dark reapers 3 striking scorpions. I think before that would have been 1600 pointsish...
26. Eldrad the same but had access to more powers
27. Shuriken and scatter lasers cheaper across the board

28. You could also dont identical battations using rangers or dire avengers with 2 warlocks each... for around  750 points. 12 command points for an army then. And you still have to deal with 6 psykers and 9 units of snipers max 1 wound on smite  or shuriken weapons.


Look i can't say how excited i am to hear all of this.  I now cant wait to get my hands on the codex... wow huh!
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