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Discussion: Eldar / Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Last post by Odras on Today at 11:47:44 PM »
Thanks for that, I had not managed to find that example. To me that makes it fairly clear that you do need to pay for it, and that it applies for anything that has a points cost.
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Discussion: Eldar / Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Last post by Shadenuat on Today at 11:29:20 PM »
Index Imperium 1 faq
Q: Is the cost of the combat shield included in the Company
Champion and Company Champion on Bike’s points?
A: No. This (and all similar ‘other wargear’ found in the
points values section) must be paid for in the same way
as a model’s weapons

Since it's in the section with point values, you pay for it. If it isn't, you don't (which is the case for some upgrade for Chaos lords or whatever). That's basically the gist of it, and fits with Powershield & Spirit Stones.
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Discussion: Eldar / Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Last post by Odras on Today at 11:13:08 PM »
Basically, you can draw upon other indexes to see how it works in them and their FAQ (which means you pay, since marine captain or whatever does, while chaos lord doesn't, so on, so forth)

Do you mind giving some more details of these similar instances from other books? What ability does a marine captain pay for?

I have attempted to go through the other books, but I am the first to admit that with the deluge of new information in 8th I do not have a good understanding of any faction outside of Aeldari.
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Discussion: Eldar / Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Last post by Shadenuat on Today at 10:59:12 PM »
Basically, you can draw upon other indexes to see how it works in them and their FAQ (which means you pay, since marine captain or whatever does, while chaos lord doesn't, so on, so forth); or you decide that you play Eldar by Index Xenos 1, not other books, and don't pay and wait until GW fixes it's own mess.

I go with the second option, which is why I also don't use Fortune to save from mortal wounds for example.
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Discussion: Eldar / Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Last post by Odras on Today at 10:30:17 PM »
you are best to assume that the mistake was in putting it in "Abilities" rather than "Wargear" or "Equipment".

The Iron Halo is not a piece of gear with a point cost, but Spirit Stones and the Forceshield do have point costs.

I agree that is probably the safest assumption and the one that I have made in my lists for now due to my opponents opinion on it, but what evidence is there to suggest this is the correct assumption? To me it seems equally as likely that the mistake was simply using the same name for 2 different things. Most people who I have talked to that said the same thing you said were basing it off the forceshield and forgetting that wraithblades have an option to use a forceshield.

The iron halo is also not an optional upgrade for any other units in the index.

I don't like the idea of basing things off, "that is clearly a mistake so lets play it this way instead of how it was written". Understandably, the moment a FAQ comes out saying that the forceshield / spiritstones should be under wargear they should be payed for, but based on the rules as they currently are I see no argument for abilities needing to be payed for.

To me making assumptions about what is a mistake and what is not is opening a massive can of worms. Do we say hemlocks no longer auto hit, because quite a few people are convinced that is a mistake? Do we increase the points cost of Bobby G because some people think he has been undercosted? Where does it stop?
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Discussion: Eldar / Re: Points cost for unit abilities
« Last post by DCannon4Life on Today at 06:28:19 PM »
While an FaQ may clarify at some point, you are best to assume that the mistake was in putting it in "Abilities" rather than "Wargear" or "Equipment". The Iron Halo is not a piece of gear with a point cost, but Spirit Stones and the Forceshield do have point costs. I recommend you pay the points for the Spirit Stones and the Forceshield.

Cheers!
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Discussion: Eldar / Points cost for unit abilities
« Last post by Odras on Today at 05:00:20 PM »
Hi all, I am wanting some further opinion on this as it has divided my usual play group and I have found conflicting opinions else where on the internet.

Do you pay points cost for a units abilities? Things that are listed not in the wargear section of the profile but under the abilities section.

The units this applies to from Eldar are the Hemlock and the Autach. These have Spiritstones, and a forceshield listed in their respective abilities.

The people that have argued for having to pay for them have simply stated that since there are costs for them in the index you have to pay for them. My counter argument is that both of those items are optional pieces of wargear that can be taken on other units and the costs are there to cover those units. Additionally the index states "Points per model (Does not include wargear), which to me means that you have to add the cost of anything listed in the wargear section, or the wargear options section.

No where I can see does it indicate that you have to pay for abilities that a unit has. It this is the case, why are some abilities free and others are not simply because they have the same name as a piece of wargear. For example Iron Halo on the space marine captain is an ability that gives a 4++ save, whereas the autach has an forceshield ability that gives it a 4++ save. Why would you have to pay for one but not the other.

Let me know your thoughts, and if I have been blind and simply missed one of the FAQs clarifying this please let me know. Additionally is there any other instances of abilities sharing a name with wargear in other factions?


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Great post! It is interesting to see, I have been trying to work out whether our good units are undercosted or our bad units are over costed.
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Discussion: Chaos Space Marines / Hellbrute "Unit" Combo Shynanigans
« Last post by tomjashroom on Today at 09:46:43 AM »
Was going through the index lf some nice combos and I found one that might be appealing for anyone that has a bunch of Hellbrutes hanging around from the old formation. The combo is running a bunch of hellbrutes maybe a knight too if u want to be mega troll within 6 inches of Abbadon for full rerolls on to hits. I think it works pretty well 5  t7 models that dont degenerate and can potentiall shoot in the opponens turn from crazed. Its also really hard to kill that many models before they get abby into combat.

I admit I only have tried it once. But I did stand still and shoot a bloodthirter off the board turn one with the 10 twin lascannons, I also got the chance the flame some guys when they got close it didnt do well for them either since abby just moed them over since the bloodthirster was gone.

I call it a unit since all the models ahve to be within 6 of abby and it looks like a unit when its deployed. I think this might have some potential against tanks, assult armies with big bugs and stuff and maybe against big shooters. I could see some tears if u got first turn and just stood back and shot a tau players expensive broadsides off the board. 
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Discussion: Space Marines / Re: Thoughts on the Thunderfire cannon
« Last post by Is duck on Today at 06:57:32 AM »
Each time I build a list that includes one, I have a tough time stomaching the points cost to field it. There are tons more anti-infantry options we have which are mobile. The 5S 0AP make it subpar at its job anyway. A Razorback with twin assault cannon and a 5-man squad of sternguard with two heavy flamers and three combi-flamers might be a better choice.

Of course this is all conjecture because there isn't much to go on from your post. What are you looking to do with it? If you have the points and a way to re-roll the hits and wounds and want to hide it behind something, go nuts.

Mayhaps I should have specified this earlier. I need something to deal with guard, orks, poxwalkers and skitari rangers, without exposing itself to my opponents countershooting or getting assaulted. I aldready run the hellblasers in the backfield with the 30" plasma along with Guilliman to make them reroll all hits and wounds. Though one thing that has helped me in the task is my new land raider crusader. Allthough I do find that the Landraider usually gets to shoot turn one, it is only able to affect a singe portion of the table at the time. Therefore I figured running a thunderfire will be able to reach almost all corners, if deployed in center (going from dawn of war deployment, the standard in our basement. In any other case, I figure that if hordes are non present in the game, I might be able to use it against vehichels such as razorbaks.

Another point, whilst watching miniwargamings codex review on youtube, they told of a stratagem, costing 1cp, that I think reduses the hit roll by one, but if you hit a unit, not wound, hit, you halve the units move, as well as halve any advance, though I am uncertain if it affects charge distance. This unless it has fly, of course. This second use I belive will be well used against things like bikers, tanks that need to be up close, and I know it will annoy the hell out of my friend when I tell him his poxwalkers now only move 2". 
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