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Messages - Tobas DA

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40K Rules Questions / Re: Stratagem usage
« on: February 10, 2018, 04:34:55 AM »

page 215 Rulebook bottom "Strategic Discipline"  (from German Rulebook, should be the same page)

Addition: This is for "matched play" only. In open/narrative play, you could use a stratagem several times per phase. 


from the core rules no to all.

Crucial for shooting after advancing is the weapons "Type" in its profile.

A Frag Grenade has the "Grenade" type keyword, a Bolt Pistol has the "Pistol" type keyword.

You can shoot the Bolt Pistol instead of a Melta Gun (assault typ weapon), but that does not change the Bolt Pistols profile from pistol to assault. Same with grenades.

You can not shoot pistols or throw grenades after advancing, unless there is an army special rule or stratagem.

As far as I know, the Slugga is a "Pistol" and can not be shot after advancing. The "Shoota" can, it is a "Assault" weapon.

Discussion: Dark Angels / Re: Chapter Tactics
« on: February 03, 2018, 05:10:04 PM »
With the fake leaks (Lion coming, cool stratagems etc.), at first I was very disappointed, almost angry about the new codex. Especially the non existing synergy between Ravenwing and Deathwing.
I made my peace. Dark Angels do OK, they have good stratagems.

I play a mixed wing list, which does better than expected and is fun to play. (1 battalion + 1 outrider detachment) 1000 to 1500 points.

Belial and one 5 man DW shooty unit.

One 4 man RW Bike unit with all plasma, one RW Landspeeder with 2 Heavy Flamers and a Dark Talon.

Rest Greenwing (depending on points)
Scouts/Tacticals for Troops requirements. Lieutenant for HQ

Second Lieutenant with jump pack and 3 Inceptors with assault bolters

Depending on points, adding some heavy support (Devastators, Whirlwind, Razorback etc.)   

Tactic: Advance with the Bikes (speed of the raven/ weapons of the dark age), deepstrike with Belial, the Lieutenant and the DW Terminators (use deathwing assault if necessary) close to the bikes and the Inceptors behind the HQs. If necessary also fly the Dark Talon close to the HQs for re-rolls)

Shoot the crap out of the enemy (re-roll 1s to hit and to wound, re-roll all to hit with DW). Try the 9" charge (master of maneuvre)

The rest of the Greenwing camps back in cover on objectives and re-rolls 1s for grim resolve.

Made 1st place in a 1000 points tournament, and a clear victory today.

At the moment I am happy with Dark Angels, and the Terminators did well in the last 3-4 games. The real firepower comes from the Inceptors and the RW Bikes (and Dark Talon) but the Terminators strongly distract the enemy, because they re-roll all failed to hit rolls (and appear more dangerous) and are a threat in CC .

Discussion: Dark Angels / Re: Chapter Tactics
« on: August 13, 2017, 06:24:26 AM »
Nice to see a lively discussion, I like it :)

Some points seem to  crystallize out.

- Buff if teleporting in: re-roll to hit and or to wound / or bonus to AP (Chapter Tactics)
- Ability to deepstrike closer to enemy unit (~6") to increase chance of assault (Stratagem and or synergy with RW teleport homer/ "call in the DW")

- Increase survive-ability, some sort of jink or hard to hit bonus (CT).
- Hit and run ability (~fall back and shoot) (CT)
- Scout and or outflank ability (~SG)

I donīt like the 5++ if advancing, not comparable worth for all RW, only "semi usable" with assault weapons. Flat 5++ with no disadvantage (like 6th ed), maybe increased to 4++ if advancing (all only against shooting attacks).
Or a -1 to hit modifier instead of invulnerable save (if more than ~12" away).
I like this, because it would be good for landspeeders/ fliers  shooting from a distance (they have no bonus from a hit and run ability (~fall back and shoot); have the fly keyword anyway)
Less good for bikes closing in (rapid fire range/ charge), but they would profit from hit and run.

Greenwing (general)
- Moral buff (~+1 Ld/ some stubborn rule)
- Some overwatch buff (~ hit on 5+); I strongly agree with Nightwing, no full BS spam. 
- Tactical genius buff (~ more command points/ regain CP)

So far my summary.

I fear, with the Space Marine Codex out, there is NO competitive Dark Angels List at the moment (using the Index 1). Especially not Deathwing and Ravenwing.

With the point drops (SM Codex) for Bikes, Trikes, Landspeeders (previous post) and the Powerfist (-8 points), it makes no sense to play Deathwing or Ravenwing.

You could proxy Ravenwing with Raven Guard Bikes and Deathwing (for example) with Black Templars Terminators (much cheaper and with chapter tactics).

I will do it in my next game, because power creep is rising in my meta. Lost the last 2 games (1650) against; Imperial Guard: 80 Conscripts, 2 Wyverns, 1 Manticore, Psykers, Commissars, Lascannons, Melta Vets, Chimera +++ ah and the Imperial dakka Knight! Ultramarines: Guillmann, 4 max. Devastator squads with 8 Lascannons, 4 Heavy Bolters and 4 Missile Launchers (castling up), Storm Shield Bikes and some more other stuff.
Donīt get me wrong, if the points and some good Chapter Tactics transfer to an upcoming Dark Angels codex, I think it will be good for Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Discussion: Dark Angels / Re: Chapter Tactics
« on: July 27, 2017, 04:16:25 PM »
Chapter Tactics I would like to see for Dark Angels:

Dark Angels are always described as fearless and stubborn, fighting to the last against all odds, unwilling to retreat (even if it would be better). Characters and Deathwing always had the fearless rule and all DA had the stubborn rule.
Also DA are described as relentless in their defense and attacks.

I loved the feeling playing DA, sometimes being decimated and winning by point, because one last tactical marine refused to retreat. "You lost CC by 3 (Ld 8 - 3 = 5) you rolled a 8, you retreat. NO stubborn  :)"
I play Imperial Fists as allies and often had the feeling, that something is wrong with their morale.

General Chapter Tactics:
Grim Resolve: All DA models add +1 to their Ld (just like Ultramarines CT), in addition they hit on 5+, if firing overwatch (the more defensive approach of DA, charge us but we will stand and fight). 

Ravenwing CT (in addition): If more than 12" away, the enemy subtracts -1 from their to hit rolls (Raven Guard CT), in addition if falling back, RW can shoot in the shooting phase with a -1 to hit modifier (unless also having the fly rule) (Ultramarines CT again). Unlike White Scars, who can charge again.

Deathwing (in addition): fearless, vengeful strike: in the turn a DW units teleports onto the table, it can re roll failed to hit and to wound rolls of 1 (shooting and CC). So Assault Terminators also have a bonus. 

It might be a bit to mutch, but RW and DW are more expensive than vanilla Space Marines.

Stratagems is the next topic.


What I have heard from the internet, with the new Space Marines Codex we will see the following price drops:

Space Marine Bike: -6 Points
Attack Bike: -10 Points
Land Speeder: -10 Points

If this transfers to Dark Angels, it will be a boost for Ravenwing.

Discussion: Dark Angels / Re: Chapter Tactics
« on: July 21, 2017, 02:49:58 PM »
Hello Primarch Fritz, I am honored.

I restarted playing Dark Angels at beginning of 6th edition, since that time Deathwing had no assault bonuses. The focus seemed to be on shooting Terminators, (vengeful strike) twin linked shooting on the turn of deepstrike. That was OK but a little sad for Deathwing Knights (and pure assault Terminators).

Yes, some kind of assault bonus would be nice. I would prefer a bonus in combination with teleporting on the table.

Maybe: Stratagem (1CP): Precision deepstrike. If teleporting onto the table (within 6" of a friendly Ravenwing unit), a Deathwing unit must only stay more than 3" away from any enemy model.

Something to make deepstrike assault more likely. Maybe deepstriking Venerable Dreadnoughts  :)

Discussion: Dark Angels / Chapter Tactics
« on: July 20, 2017, 04:19:28 AM »

Chapter Tactics are out for Space Marines. What Chapter Tactics would you like to see for Dark Angels?

A little brainstorming on what we lost:
- grim resolve: stubborn, overwatch on 5+
- ravenwing: reroll- jink, (hit and run, scout, outflank). Kind of useless jink is still existing.
- deathwing: hatred (CSM), (vengeful strike). Fearless and hatred (fallen) is still existing.

In general I would like to see 3 different "chapter tactics" for deathwing, ravenwing and greenwing. And some stratagems for synergy between them.
To encourage mixed wing.

Yes offense is the best defense.

You can never have enough firepower  8)

The Vengeance seems solid now (compared to normal Land-speeders)


no Darkshroud? I think the -1 to hit bubble is important, combined with aversion and hard to hit (Darktalon) it is nasty. And the Darkshroud is a fire magnet.

The Black-knights should still be OK, I would try the grenade launcher, 2D6 frag shots or D3 damage krak shots at 24" assault. I think a strong point is, that you can advance the BK 20" (gain jink save) and still shoot.

Ravenwing Bikes I donīt know, have not played them. Ad a Heavy Bolter Attack Bike as cost efficient sacrifice model with 4 wounds (FAQ 2 attacks). You can shoot the twin bolters and the special weapon with no penalty. Take all melta/ combi melta or flamer/ combi flamer (unit of 3 => 3D6 auto hits and 14 bolter shots/ 2 with combi bolter on 4+).
I am glad, that I did not convert to grav  :)

For plasma take the Black Knights.

Sammael, Librarian, Dark Talon I would also take them, good choice.

Hello Nightwing7x,

I did not post for a longer time, but I started playing more again with 8th.

Yesterday I played a 750 points "tournament" and tried out 3 different armies.

Greenwing with Azrael and all plasma (plasma is the way to go I think)

Landraider Crusader (+1 stormbolter) with 5 Deathwing Knights, Asmodai and 1 Tactical Squad

Pure Deathwing 3x 5 Deathwing Terminators with Storm Bolters only and 1 Primaris Lieutenant

Greenwing with plasma is strong, Azrael almost auto include (solid victory but other topic)

Deathwing Knights in a Crusader are excellent, Asmodai now gives 1 extra attack and re-rolls in combat. The Knights wiped everything in CC (1 Cybot, 1 10 man Tactical squads in one round of combat and 1 10 man Tactical squad in the next turn). The Crusader pumps out 12 Assault cannon shots and 28 Bolter shots at 12" and is resilient (only lost 7 wounds).

Pure Deathwing :'( still not very good, got tabled in turn 6.
2 things broke my neck, SMITE (lesson learned: bring the watcher in the dark! and a Librarian if possible). No fire support base, as you mentioned 50% off the units have to start on the table => food slogging is kind of a waste.

Solution for pure Deathwing:
Take a Landraider.
Take 10 man Deathwing Squads to teleport in, with this you can teleport in more models. Fearless, no moral disadvantage. And it is more likely that you have less units and can go first.
Take Venerable Dreadnoughts as fire support base. Twin LC and missile launcher or 2x Twin auto cannons. In the Deathwing game, that I lost, a Hellbrute with twin LC and missile launcher caused big problems for my Termis.
General lessons:
You need a "buff commander", Belial, Azrael, Asmodai ...
You need anti Psi with a elite force! Take the watcher.
Mix Deathwing squads with storm shields (~2 per 5), 5+ invul. will not save you. Even better now, because you can choose the model to take the wounds.
Keep the cheap Power sword Sergeant as sacrifice model.
Lightning claw Termis should be good now (on paper). Cheaper than in 7th, 39 points only with 2 wounds and better punch.
Deathwing Knights are better than TH/SS.


Discussion: THE LIST / Re: Looking for help with an All Wing DA List
« on: October 25, 2016, 06:24:11 PM »
As for the dev squad idea that is really good like REALLY good and I am about to try that idea right now honestly.

... make ... a Redemption Force instead giving the terminator squads 2 TH/SS and a plasma cannon each. Then change the tactical marines so one squad is a 5 man unit with a missile launcher and the dev squad is at full 10 man strength with 2 plasma and grav cannons.

Great, would love to have feedback on how it played. Plasma cannon on Terminator is good (5/6 to survive gets hot  ;)) and donīt forget with twin linked you can still re-roll gets hot 1s on blast weapons. Plasma cannon is long rang, you can shoot and run with DW Redemption Force (eldar trickery). Heavy Flamer: run first, if scatter, then flame.

Discussion: THE LIST / Re: Looking for help with an All Wing DA List
« on: October 25, 2016, 05:24:48 PM »
HOWEVER I would like to point out that you do not need terminator armor on your characters in the Deathwing Strike Force/Redemption force, models that do not have the armor are just put into normal reserves.


we are both 50% right with this, looked it up again (and learned something :))

The Deathwing Redemption Force needs Terminator Armour on all independent characters (p.141/ formation restrictions).

You are right with the Deathwing Strike Force (rules as written). Iīm sure GW messed this up (same with Ravenwing Strike Force), because these are old formations (reprinted on the last pages of the new Codex) and in the 6th edition codex the Deathwing rule was connected to Terminator armor. Independent Characters did not have the Deathwing rule, they had the Inner Circle rule and gained Deathwing if equipped with Terminator Armour.

Ravenwing special rule did not exist.

As I said in older posts: A character on bike should gain the ravenwing rule and a character in terminator armor should gain the deathwing rule. Ie a character serving in 1. company has the deathwing rule, a character serving in 2. company has the ravenwing rule.

Inner Circle and Deathwing should be separated again.

Discussion: THE LIST / Re: Looking for help with an All Wing DA List
« on: October 25, 2016, 02:58:46 PM »
Second tweak I would recommend (with your 30 points left)

1x 5 man tactical squad, las cannon (or missile launcher), remove rhino

10 man devastator squad, 2x grav cannon, 2x plasma cannon, rhino
combat squad, grav cannons in rhino, advance with the 2x 10 man tacticals

Backfield objectives (fire support), plasma cannons and tacticals with las cannon.

- same manpower
- 2 grav cannons midfield = powerful threat bubble (full BS overwatch grav is very scary)
- 2 fire support units with 7 sacrifice bodies (instead of 1/1), las cannons and plasma cannons in 1 dev squad is not optimal; 

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