Author Topic: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault  (Read 6022 times)

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Offline mcphro

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Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« on: January 07, 2018, 12:22:32 AM »
I'm sure some people are going to disagree with me on this, but I tend to find I LOVE Eldar close combat assault. There is just something about Banshees and Scorpions especially that I love that I somehow feel (sometimes foolishly) that Eldar have an actual chance in close combat!

Now, saying that I've been playing around with a strategy lately, and it is part of a larger army wide strategy that Ill explain later. Don't get me wrong, my playstyle is to pit 100% of my army vs 50% of my opponents, but gee is going in hand to hand 1) Fun, 2) a very large distracton carnifex. In my last game I was able to usea 5 x banshees to take on a wraithlord in hand to hand, tying in up for 2 turns cutting its wounds in half. a 68 point unit taking 150+ points out of the game right when my opponent needed it.

Ok, enough guff. Onto my Eldar Alpha strike close combat idea.

It requires a Vanguard detachment.

Idea: Strike with lots of units in 1 location giving lots of chances to get into combat. The other thing, is while your oppoent is spending a portion of their time and army trying to defeat yours, it leaves the restof your army time to get on with business.

HQ
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Avatar
* Not essential, but you could place a warlock or SpiritSeer down in your deployment zone and string a unit so it can reach with quicken, and then cast in to help a unit move.

Elite
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10 x banshees with exarch with the executioner
5 x Striking scorpions with exarch and scorpion claw
5 x Striking scorpions with exarch and scorpion claw
5 x Striking scorpions with exarch and scorpion claw
5 x Striking scorpions with exarch and scorpion claw
5 x Striking scorpions with exarch and scorpion claw

Step 1
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Use Webway strike to place the banshees and the Avatar into reserve to bring them out when you deep strike
Place all striking scorpions into reserve.
Place warlock on your 12" start line with the rest of your armies units.

Step 2
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On the turn you wish to use it, bring the banshees in and the avatar 9" away from the enemy screen/ enemy units. Bring into the same location the 5 x striking scorpion units as well. You now have 7 close combat units all supporting each other close with the avatar. Move the warlock up 7" and run. Cast Quicken from the warlock on a scorpion unit if in range so it gets a free move.

Shooting phase: you now have 35 shuriken pistols that can now shoot at your unit of choice within 12".

Charge phase: Because the avatar is there, you now have some cool abilities. First, any unit that charges can re-roll the charge if within 12" of the avatar. (If you wanted wraith blades instead, that's ok if that's your poison, it's just more expensive an I had other plans for the rest of the army). The banshees can charge adding 3 to the roll. They charge first. They are trying to multi-charge enemy units leaving space for the scorpions to stop the possibility of overwatch if possible. Next, you get to charge the Avatar because if he fails, you want to use command dice to reroll the charge if need be. (But since he is an asuryani unit, he should be able to affect himself giving him a reroll charge). Once he is in combat, he is safe because youll make them all beil tan, you can use 3 command dice to bring him back to life. You now get 5 x striking scorpion units to try to get into combat, rerolling the charge for each unit. You should get a few in.

Ok, let's tally it up, you have an avatar, 10 banshees and 25 striking scorpions right in front of someone's army, with a few units in close combat. You are therefore preventing them from firing next turn, you will now do (and you conveniently tell your opponent how striking scorpions can do so many mortal wounds etc.) Seriously, they should be crapping themselves just because your Avatar (be very deliberate) is rolling 2 dice for every WOUND taking the highest dice. Simply, you can loose the whole force. You WILL do damage and you WILL give your opponent a lot of things to have to deal with for at least 2 turns while you are going to town. You are immune to morale (they aren't), and you will have 5 powerfists/ executioner doing damage as well, along with mortal wounds from the scorpions.

What about the rest of the evail army, where does this all tie in?

Ok I wanted feedback on this list, but the above was to showcase how to tie in a strategy as part of it. This is the army.

2000 points.
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Vangard Detachment
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HQ
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The Avatar of Khaine

Elite
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10 x banshees with exarch with the executioner
5 x Striking scorpions with exarch and scorpion claw
5 x Striking scorpions with exarch and scorpion claw
5 x Striking scorpions with exarch and scorpion claw
5 x Striking scorpions with exarch and scorpion claw
5 x Striking scorpions with exarch and scorpion claw

Spearhead Detachment-(Alaitoc)
--------------------------
Hq
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Maugan Ra

Heavy Support
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3 x Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest Launcher
3 x Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest Launcher
3 x Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest Launcher
3 x Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest Launcher
3 x Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest Launcher
3 x Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest Launcher

Note: This unit gives you 12 D6 Str 4, AP -1 Dmg 1 shots a turn at 36" and 12 normal reaper shots.

Battalion
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(EITHER Choice 1 or Choice 2) *** Ok this 3rd choice,m is whatever you feel would really go well here to support your army. It doesnt have to be either of these choices.

Choice 1 (Is to give you more bright lance and heavy support for antitank if needed)
HQ (BEIL TAN)
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Farseer (Guide, Doom)
SpiritSeer (Quicken)

Troops
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10 x Guardian Defenders with Brightlance
10 x Guardian Defenders with Brightlance
8 x storm guardians

Heavy
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Wraithlord with Brightlance


Choice 2 (Simply about having lots of 4++ shuriken weaponry taking beil tan)
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HQ ( BEIL TAN)
----
Asurman
Spiritseer or Warlock with quicken

Troops
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5 x Dire Avengers with exarch and twin avenger catapults
5 x Dire Avengers with exarch and twin avenger catapults
5 x Dire Avengers with exarch and twin avenger catapults
5 x Dire Avengers with exarch and twin avenger catapults
5 x Dire Avengers with exarch and twin avenger catapults


This army has a few things going for it.
1. A huge distraction carnifex that if not dealt with do its best to deep strike, shoot and close combat into the opponent, taking out units that can react to your Dark Reapers.
2. An Anti-vehicle component in the dark reapers whose whole goal in life is to 1) pile on wounds to units out of LOS, and long-range fire support.
3. A large moving infantry blob that can put out lots of anti-infantry rending AP-3 shots. I personally like the Farseer choice 1, simply because of Doom (which make the guardians shuriken catapults a lot more dangerous. You also have some T8 toughness AND 3 bright lances in this vehicle heavy meta.


I really see the army played as 3 Blobs, not spread out over the table. 1 blob is the CC distraction carnifex. 1 Blob is the shuriken guardian/ Dire avenger blob targetting units with Doom and lots of shuriken shots The 3rd blob is the Dark Reapers with Maugan Ra. All hitting on 3's, rerolling 1's. What can your opponent do about them? When they have 2 blobs of close combat (with an Avatar) and shuriken catapults all running at them?

my 2 cents. Thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 12:31:37 AM by mcphro »

Offline ForgedInTheCrucible

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2018, 12:22:15 PM »
Sorry but striking scorpions got nerfed too hard to be a good close combat unit. They used to be able to get up to 4 attacks per model on the charge, which was what made them good: weight of dice. All they have is strength 4 no AP attacks. Why would you want to use a model like that with only 2 attacks? They are more expensive than chainsword marines and the only real difference is the slight chance of mortal wounds. I think this is far too many points on a mostly ineffectual tactic.

Offline Nebuchadnezzar

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2018, 04:26:12 PM »
You should try some shining spears if you want some close combat units? good movement, good shooting, good melee attacks
I mastered the chaos in mind and soul.
I will kill you and with a beautiful laugh I will dance until I go mad.

Offline mcphro

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2018, 05:16:17 PM »
Awesome feedback.

The only reason I chose scorpions (besides I love them of course) is simply that they can infiltrate 9" close to the enemy units. If you chose the shining spears, wouldnt you have to choose 2 very large units, use command points to deep strike them in and make them saim hann so they can reroll their charges?

What suggestions do you have to place that threatening unit/s in line with my idea?

Offline Odras

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2018, 10:23:34 PM »
I don't have the book with me at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that you can't webway strike the Avatar. It is restricted to infantry or bikers.

Offline ForgedInTheCrucible

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2018, 01:22:46 AM »
Good
I don't have the book with me at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that you can't webway strike the Avatar. It is restricted to infantry or bikers.

He is right about the Avatar. Mcphro the problem is that they would still need to make a charge longer than 9 inches, which is unlikely at best even with rerolls. The gap between deployment zones is 9-12 inches. Shining Spears move 16 inches, which means that they could just move and charge a unit turn 1 depending on deployment.

Offline Nebuchadnezzar

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2018, 02:23:32 AM »
To begin with, the bad thing about scorpions is that the whole unit is a shield for the exarch to survive and deliver his attacks. I love scorpions and tried to use them in 7th edition and now but I couldn't make the charge and the opponent killed them before they could move. Only karandras managed to charge and he is a beast but when he is alone and without invu, he is dead.
I tried many times the deepstrike/charge combo and until now it was not successful for me. That's why I prefer shining spear. they have invu, they can reach the opponent, they can charge flyers and they have a decent shooting. So I can't give you any advice on scorpions because I did not manage to use them correctly. Even if they manage to charge only exarch or karandras can deliver a decent amount of damage that can threaten the enemy.
I mastered the chaos in mind and soul.
I will kill you and with a beautiful laugh I will dance until I go mad.

Offline mcphro

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2018, 05:48:22 AM »
Good
I don't have the book with me at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that you can't webway strike the Avatar. It is restricted to infantry or bikers.

He is right about the Avatar. Mcphro the problem is that they would still need to make a charge longer than 9 inches, which is unlikely at best even with rerolls. The gap between deployment zones is 9-12 inches. Shining Spears move 16 inches, which means that they could just move and charge a unit turn 1 depending on deployment.

Wow... shows how much i know huh! LOL.

OK.. I guess 6 units of spears instead then.  I will say this.  I think having a reactionary unit that can strike at a section of their line or onto their deepstrikers can make your opponent think twice about their deployment.

Ive always liked getting into the enemies face.  For a start,  people make their armies to some sort of plan.  By being able to get stuck into them throws a spanner into their plans.  Second... if you use shining spears then nobody expects them to move how far they do.  I have another game on friday and im thinking of giving this a try.

Thanks heaps guys.

Offline mcphro

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault - MARK II
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2018, 07:17:42 AM »
Ok, list Mk 2... List first, strategy later.

Battalion (Biel Tan)
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HQ
----
Asurman
Farseer (Doom, Executioner, Smite)

Troops
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5 x Dire Avengers with Exarch with Twin Shuriken Catapults
5 x Dire Avengers with Exarch with Twin Shuriken Catapults
5 x Dire Avengers with Exarch with Twin Shuriken Catapults
5 x Dire Avengers with Exarch with Twin Shuriken Catapults
5 x Dire Avengers with Exarch with Twin Shuriken Catapults
5 x Dire Avengers with Exarch with Twin Shuriken Catapults

Outrider Detachment (Saim Hann)
-------------------------------------------------------------
HQ
----
Autarch on bike with Laser Lance

Fast Attack
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3 x Shining Spears with exarch with Star Lance
3 x Shining Spears with exarch with Star Lance
3 x Shining Spears with exarch with Star Lance
3 x Shining Spears with exarch with Star Lance
3 x Shining Spears with exarch with Star Lance
3 x Shining Spears with exarch with Star Lance

Spearhead Detachment (Aliatoc)
--------------------------------------
HQ
----
Maugan Ra

Heavy Support
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3 x Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest launcher
3 x Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest launcher
3 x Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest launcher
3 x Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest launcher
3 x Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest launcher
3 x Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest launcher

Strategy
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Each part of the list again supports the idea to use 100% of my army vs 50% of theirs. This has a LOT of units, so your opponent is likely to get the +1 to who goes first.

A couple of points to note. This army has a LOT of shooting!
- The Dire Avengers add 6 x 12 = 72 Shuriken shots
- The shining spears = 76 Shuriken shots
- The shining spear speed 16" and charge or 22" and still shoot with no penalty and the ability to reroll failed charges being Saim Hann.
- The Dark Reapers add = 12 normal Str 5/8 shots and 12 x D6 Str 4, AP -2, 1 Damage shots. (Avg 48 shots that you don't need line of sight for.)
- this doesn't count for Doom from the Farseer on enemy key units, 8 Command points for the army that the Autarch can have a chance of getting back

The armies potential
------------------------

That's a potential 196 shots *** a turn and any unit. In addition:
- 72 of those shots from the Dire Avengers reroll 1's being Beil Tan
- 12 shots + average 48 tempest launcher are all rerolling 1's due to Maugan Ra's Ability
- The Shining spears all reroll 1's to hit due to travelling with the Autarch
- The Dire Avengers have a 4+ inv save and the Shining Spears all have a 4+ Inv save vs shooting and reroll all wounds vs vehicles and monstrous creatures and the Dark Reapers all have a -1 to hit over 12".
- 148 shots all rend at -3 AP, and all the dark reaper shots will be wounding at -2 AP or better.
It gets better... I didn't add any of the Shining spears shooting attacks with their lances if need beyou'reSo you're looking at 12 x Str 6 -4 shots and 6 x Str 8 -4 shots, then the charge on top of that. Add 2 wounds and an extra attack and Toughness 4 and they are doing really well.

- This means the entire army reroll 1's no matter the weapon or craftworld trait, 3/4 of the army has a 4++ save, a HUGE number of shots rend with -3 AP, and 12 of the 18 units are all anti-vehicle or able to take on Infantry easiliy as well.

- Autarch - I would also consider spending the command points for the strategy to add another remnant of glory to the aurtach. Perhaps the SHIMMERPLUME OF ACHILLRIAL which makes him harder to hit, or the special Saim Hann lance so he does 4 wounds on a 6+ not 2 wounds.

'whew'

Then to protect the warlord (Farseer), The warlord trait will be Fates Messenger: FATE’S MESSENGER --> Add 1 to the Wounds characteristic of your Warlord. In addition, roll a dice each time your Warlord loses a wound. On a roll of 6, your Warlord does not lose the wound. Then, they also take the Phoenix Gem and only keeping 1 of the Dire avenger units (he travels with Asurman and the Dire Avenger Blob. This means the Farseer is back to 6 wounds, has a 4+ save with a 6+ FNP, and then finally if he is killed, he is coming back so long as 1 mortal wound was done with a unit nearby.

*** Question for this edition - Seems silly, but since units can shoot multiple weapons... Can a shining spear fire their spear AND their twin-linked Shuriken Catapults in the same turn? If any other unit can fire all of their weapons now as well???

« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:58:24 AM by mcphro »

Offline Nebuchadnezzar

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2018, 09:18:41 AM »
Yes they can shoot both their weapons,  that's why they have good shooting.  The only noote I have to make is that I believe that the autarch has to be the warlord to give back command points and yes you should give him the lance relic
I mastered the chaos in mind and soul.
I will kill you and with a beautiful laugh I will dance until I go mad.

Offline Odras

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2018, 07:30:03 PM »
I have changed my thinking on this only just recently myself after reading a pretty in-depth discussion between The Mattler and Abusepuppy on a 3++ Is the New Black website. I don't see the value in running your army as a mixed group of craft-worlds.

If you were to run all three of your detachments as Alaitoc you would lose the following bonuses:
  • Biel- Tan warlord trait - you don't really have a good target unit for that warlord trait anyway
  • Biel-Tan re-roll ones for Shuriken weapons, if you change it to Alaitoc then your Autach can buff your dire avengers for the same buff without having to take a sub-par warlord trait.
  • Leadership bonus for Biel-Tan aspects. You have minimum squads, by the time the leadership matters even without the +1 the squad is basically dead anyway.
  • Saim-Hann reroll charges for you warlord and the shining spears - you might make a few less charges, but you shining spears are more likely to actually be alive to make those charges
  • Novalance Relic - It's good but the cost of taking it (1 detachment as Saim-Hann) is not worth it

Other suggestions I have:
  • Drop Maugen Ra for an Autach with Swooping Hawk wings + Reaper Launcher. This way if you really need you can have the Autach sit back with your reapers, although I would suggest running him up with the dire avengers instead. You don't really need the reroll ones with the Dark Reapers because they are all about the exarchs with tempast launcher, who reroll ones anyway but you do have the option to leave your Autach back there anyway.
  • Secondly you have not a lot of capacity to deal with big tough things, but have a lot of horde killing capacity. I would change your dark reapers to 3 units of 3 with tempest launcher exarchs, + 1 group of 10 with missile launcher exarch. You should have the left over points from dropping Maugen Ra for an Autach. I would then give your farseer, guide + doom and put him on babysitting duties. This also allows you way better use of forewarning with 10 reapers, which is amazing.
  • You could re-arrange your detachments to get 2 Battalions which would give you 9 CP instead of 8

Online eldarglim

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2018, 11:26:27 AM »
The banshees can charge adding 3 to the roll. They charge first. They are trying to multi-charge enemy units leaving space for the scorpions to stop the possibility of overwatch if possible.

The Banshees only get +3" to the charge roll if they advance, which they can not do the turn they arrive via webway

Offline Nebuchadnezzar

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2018, 12:35:52 PM »
I think that we can use other attributes too and not only the almighty - 1 to hit rolls....  If you have an eldar opponent with a list full of dark reapers as the lists you propose then you would have no attribute at all.
I mastered the chaos in mind and soul.
I will kill you and with a beautiful laugh I will dance until I go mad.

Offline Tahnir

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2018, 03:31:25 PM »
I know this is kinda off topic but I'd really liked to see the biel tan trait to be re rolling ones on all aspect weapons.....

Offline Odras

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Re: Eldar Tactic Idea - The Eldar Close combat Assault
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2018, 07:13:22 PM »
I think that we can use other attributes too and not only the almighty - 1 to hit rolls....  If you have an eldar opponent with a list full of dark reapers as the lists you propose then you would have no attribute at all.

You can yes, and I doubt many people at all would argue that you can't. What mcphro asked for was advice on the list, and while no one is forcing you to use Alaitoc you would find it very hard to argue that it is not the better option in nearly all cases for the reasons I outlined in my post above.

There are some cases where it doesn't provide any benefit/less benifit such as against things like Dark Reapers, Hemlocks, and flamers and against people who can close the gap really fast. There are also a lot more cases where the other traits do not benefit.

If you don't like being advised to make changes to a list with reasons for the changes all fairly well explained then a thread where someone is asking for list advice is probably not for you.