Author Topic: Dual Force Org?  (Read 3988 times)

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Offline Fritz40K

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Dual Force Org?
« on: July 16, 2013, 02:30:30 PM »
Quick questions, more of just wondering....

Clubs, and gaming groups out there- who plays with the dual force org chart for 2K plus points.

Around here, 2K is the "standard" game, even up to 2.5 K yet there is SO much resistance to dual force org.

Why? It's in the "rules".

Does it really break anything?

I know from the Tyranid perspective, it would change SO much in terms of making the army more able to adapt to the current 6th edition codexes.
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Offline BeeJ

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2013, 02:58:48 PM »
The only restriction at my gaming club is time. Any game over 2500 points is usually 4+ hours long. Our general games are 2000 points, this gives everybody the option of using 1 or 2 force orgs.

Often if we want to play larger games, the players agree before hand to have high point costs units so that there are less units to use and each turn takes less time.
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Offline EldarNinja

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2013, 03:03:08 PM »
It does change quite a bit. When it first came out some people were posting supposed broken lists on the net but I think they found that their lists weren't as broken as they thought.

I ran dual force org exclusively since 6th came out. That is until last month when my friend said he needs to practice for a tournament that isn't using them. So for the past month I haven't been doing it and I can feel the change.

Basically what you get with dual force org is much more power. I can take 4 farseers with my Eldar and guarentee many units get guide/prescience.

I can take 18 War Walkers for instance. Or three fire prisms as well as 9 war walkers.

Basically, it is really fun and hard to win games like that because not only do you have access to tons of the good stuff, so does your opponent. Games are much more closely fought. They are harder to win, and in my opinion, they are much more fun simply because you aren't forced into taking things you don't like.

But other people have complained that it is too overpowered...funny considering some of these people just bought into Apocalypse.
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Offline Khe-Loc

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2013, 04:08:23 PM »
Dual force org chart makes making choices redundant. To some extent, bigger point games do the same, but then there is still the force org. If we take that away too, poeple will just spam the "good" units and leave all the other stuff at home.

And seriously, who would want to face CSM bringing 6 helldrakes?

Offline Maddog95

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2013, 05:14:02 PM »
At my club, and most of the landscape in Flanders, 1850 is the benchmark number.
So, we haven't yet come into this problem.

Regardless, at 2000+ point games we usually tend to drop the win-attitude and start taking more units which are fun but kinda useless. (looking at you Ratlings)

Offline Jack

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2013, 06:18:25 PM »
My friends and I normally play 1500 points games so this isn't too much of an issue at the moment. We have a general intention to play a 2000 points game or two at some point and I expect we'll allow 2 force organisation charts.

I suspect it could go one of two ways: we spam more of the units we take at 1500 points or we might take the opportunity to use a wider range of units. I suspect we'll go with the latter as it will give us the opportunity to try some different things.

Offline Colby

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2013, 06:23:37 PM »
If its in the main rulebook, then it should be played. I don't have a problem with it, take whatever, your spending points on four farseers instead of more wave serpents. Awesome, I'm more scared of the Wave Serpents then the farseers. The point being is that your gaining whatever, but loosing everything else.

The only thing that should never be played in the rulebook is using the non-narrative terrain setup with all of the special rules that you can take. That is the gateway to sheer frustration and madness and don't wish it on anyone.

But force org? Yeah, why not? Lets do it! bring allies too while your at it, why not.

Offline UnitedWarGamers

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2013, 11:24:16 PM »
I think its because to much rule change at one time.  We have allies and a chart on who can ally with who (even tho Nids cant ally with anyone but am happy with that because they are all one mind.)  That Dual Force Org could have been put in just for the Nids to help make them in 6th so it could have just been thrown into the rule book but never really played tested on other armies.  Again it could have been to much at one time and people are just so use to playing the "standard way" and going over the 2k and crossing over to the Dual chart is taboo. 
Now at my store they had a Ard boyz tournament for 2.5k but I don't think they ran a Dual Force Org.  Did anyone else have a Ard boyz tournament at there club or store?

Offline Joe the Ripper

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2013, 12:28:25 AM »
It's nice to bring your 6 dread knights or hordes of (insert favorite spam here) but my two locals stores are split on this one. Most people here simply don't have the income to dump into this hobby, so they only have enough money or models to field a single foc at 2k. I personally just want to play how the brb says to play.

Offline Breng77

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2013, 03:25:51 AM »
My issue with the double FOC is and has always been the arbitrary implementation.  1999 points 1 FOC add a point get a full second FOC.  Seems silly, if they wanted to make the game scale they should have added like one more slot at a time or something.

My other issue is that it encourages more spam.  Sure you need a second HQ and 2 troops but now you can do thing like:

Take 6 Annihilation barges
Take 6 non squadrons vendettas.
8 rune priests
Etc.


I also agree that it takes away the tough choices, most armies are not maxing the FOC at 2k so it is really not needed.  As for people not abusing it that is only because it does not get widely used (much like FW) if it did people would develop more of the broken combos.

Offline Dirty Harry

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2013, 04:44:45 AM »
Dual force org chart makes making choices redundant. To some extent, bigger point games do the same, but then there is still the force org. If we take that away too, poeple will just spam the "good" units and leave all the other stuff at home.

And seriously, who would want to face CSM bringing 6 helldrakes?

I would. I'd bring 6 Hydra flak tank batteries.
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Offline IDICBeer

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2013, 06:16:14 AM »
In my gaming group we do not play dual foc, mainly because it will favour the people who have more models to play with

Offline eris

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2013, 08:28:04 AM »
There are a few codex's where you do start to need more force org slots when you get to like 2k. Dark Eldar are the one that spring to mind for me, where you can fill every single foc slot with a useful unit at around 1750 points. so as you pass 2k and get to 2.5k you're having to bolt on upgrades that are less and less useful just to spend the points.

Offline Breng77

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2013, 02:13:36 PM »
Only if you make a certain list, there are plenty of DE lists that are 2k that don't come near filling all the slots.  So it is not needed.  Just because you can fill all the slots at 1750 (and I'm not sold the effective lists do.)does not mean a better list at 2k using different units is not possible.

Offline FTGT Evan

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2013, 02:26:40 PM »
I see it as a streamlined version of the Fantasy scaled restrictions. I honestly almost never play games at 2k or higher, so haven't really come into conflict with it.

The way I see it, if someone spams something just above 2k to try to abuse dual foc, they're probably thinning out the rest of their army severely. If someone fills a slot with as many of something as he can field at 1850, and then doubles it at 2k, he's going to have to drop a bunch of something to get them in, and it's arguably what held the spam and cheese together at 1850.