Author Topic: Dual Force Org?  (Read 4138 times)

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Offline eris

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2013, 04:44:30 PM »
Only if you make a certain list, there are plenty of DE lists that are 2k that don't come near filling all the slots.  So it is not needed.  Just because you can fill all the slots at 1750 (and I'm not sold the effective lists do.)does not mean a better list at 2k using different units is not possible.

i'm not saying it's not possible, but you're then forced away from certain lists and you end up falling into everyone taking the same things more or less.

i think you'd struggle to build a decent 2.5k list without taking some very obvious things..

10man warrior squads in raiders (questionable due to 12" effective range and how easily raiders die in assault)
incubi who are often an expensive luxury but you end up taking them just because you have the points spare
named HQs who are twice teh price of your shadowfield venomblade archon but aren't actually much more effective
a blob of 25 khymerae in a beastpack because.. why not!? it's gonna scare somebody.

those are the kind of choices you usually end up with as you pass 2k. a lot of the strength of DE is in it's msu. you have a lot of threats and alot of redundancy and that combined with the speed giving you the ability to wolfpack is what makes up for the fragility of the codex.

just as an example, the current list i'm messing around with at 1750 has 11 DE vehicles and 640 points of the list is made up of eldar allies! If i have 5 haywire wyches in a venom, giving me more points ot upgrade them isn't going to help. they already perform the two tsks i need of them as well as they can, the entra points are fluff. similarly ravagers.. even at base cost they're solid. i can see an argument for flickers and night shields but beyong that, what are you going to give them? DE units very quickly top out in terms of useful upgrades. you can start dropping venoms for raiders and taking bigger squads, but then you lose the shooting of the venom and the whole unit changes role. fast attackis probably the place where it's easiest to sink those spare points. i'm halfway tempted to go full DE and field three 30 man beast squads along with all the vehicles i'm running, but considering i currently have just 10 khyms adn 8 RWings thats a lot of painting away right now. ;)

It is nice to look at someone like Skari who's running his coven list right now. it's cool to see someone making twin liquifier squads of 10 wracks, grots getting to wreck face (even if they die just about every game) and trying to work scourge in and have them be good. But i don't think even he (and he's perfectly capable of speaking for himself, i'm just speculating) would claim it's the most competitive list in the world. i think he could build a stronger list, but that's not the point of what he's doing. the coven list seems to me to be an exercise in doing it because you want to do it, it's fun to do it and it's satisfying to have success with it.

Offline Breng77

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2013, 09:10:02 PM »
I have little issue with double foc at 2500 it is more at 2k.  What I would have liked to see gw do is single foc up to 2k then add an additional primary "allied detachement" (1 hq, 2 troop, 1 of each other slot) for each x points (250, 500 or something). So essentially it slowly scales as points to up.  I also think at 2k the bloat you are referring too does not exist for de, I'll buy it at 2500 though.

Offline Colby

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2013, 10:36:30 PM »
Only if you make a certain list, there are plenty of DE lists that are 2k that don't come near filling all the slots.  So it is not needed.  Just because you can fill all the slots at 1750 (and I'm not sold the effective lists do.)does not mean a better list at 2k using different units is not possible.

i'm not saying it's not possible, but you're then forced away from certain lists and you end up falling into everyone taking the same things more or less.

i think you'd struggle to build a decent 2.5k list without taking some very obvious things..

10man warrior squads in raiders (questionable due to 12" effective range and how easily raiders die in assault)
incubi who are often an expensive luxury but you end up taking them just because you have the points spare
named HQs who are twice teh price of your shadowfield venomblade archon but aren't actually much more effective
a blob of 25 khymerae in a beastpack because.. why not!? it's gonna scare somebody.

those are the kind of choices you usually end up with as you pass 2k. a lot of the strength of DE is in it's msu. you have a lot of threats and alot of redundancy and that combined with the speed giving you the ability to wolfpack is what makes up for the fragility of the codex.

just as an example, the current list i'm messing around with at 1750 has 11 DE vehicles and 640 points of the list is made up of eldar allies! If i have 5 haywire wyches in a venom, giving me more points ot upgrade them isn't going to help. they already perform the two tsks i need of them as well as they can, the entra points are fluff. similarly ravagers.. even at base cost they're solid. i can see an argument for flickers and night shields but beyong that, what are you going to give them? DE units very quickly top out in terms of useful upgrades. you can start dropping venoms for raiders and taking bigger squads, but then you lose the shooting of the venom and the whole unit changes role. fast attackis probably the place where it's easiest to sink those spare points. i'm halfway tempted to go full DE and field three 30 man beast squads along with all the vehicles i'm running, but considering i currently have just 10 khyms adn 8 RWings thats a lot of painting away right now. ;)

It is nice to look at someone like Skari who's running his coven list right now. it's cool to see someone making twin liquifier squads of 10 wracks, grots getting to wreck face (even if they die just about every game) and trying to work scourge in and have them be good. But i don't think even he (and he's perfectly capable of speaking for himself, i'm just speculating) would claim it's the most competitive list in the world. i think he could build a stronger list, but that's not the point of what he's doing. the coven list seems to me to be an exercise in doing it because you want to do it, it's fun to do it and it's satisfying to have success with it.

I don't think MSU Dark Eldar is where it's at, personally. I think that you think your being mathematically efficient in your kill ratio, but once those venoms go down, your unit will go down with it. Or maybe something  like 2 or 3 might survive.

Now I think that you have several options at 2000 points, depending on the list your using. But if you really don't want to double force org for whatever reason, you can just ally and have what you need. Its really no big deal.

Offline Arrakis-to-Dune

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2013, 07:18:46 PM »
The club I go to normal plays 1k5 so it isn't a issue.

I've played a few Dual Force Org games & most of the time my opponent is just spamming 1 unit. 6 Annihilation Barges is very potent for 540 points.

From a collection point of view I am not too keen on it myself. Buying multiple models for the few times I might get to use them all seems like a waste to me. Admittedly I do own 4 Necron barges but I got those in 5th ED when the CCB was awesome. Now my forth barge is gathering dust.

As a limiting system I like the FoC, it limits the potential of spamming points efficient units & makes you think about what style of army you build.

For GW I think it a great thing as you will be parting with more of your cash but on the table I see it as way to spot the TFG/WAAC players.

Offline Michael Petrou

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2013, 12:48:43 PM »
in my club we play 2k points most of the time and use the dual org chart but we have an unwritten rule that u cannot spam certain things(like heldrakes)

Offline mattblowers

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2013, 02:41:25 PM »
we have an unwritten rule

These generally lead to arguments where I play.  An 'unwritten rule' is too often a way of players agruing agaisnt something they don't like to face.  Like the DE player that doesn't like to play armor so he argues that every mech list is 'spamming'.  Nids are one of my armies and we don't get allies which puts us at a dinstinct disadvantage.  You can field a possible 3 HQs, 8 troops, 4 elites, 4 fast attacks, and 4 heavies.  We get only normal FOC.  This is tough disadvantage especially when you consider that we are struggling already.  That being said, I'm hoping for our next 'dex to sort it out rather dual FOC and the spam I would have to face.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 09:28:31 AM by mattblowers »
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Offline Michael Petrou

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2013, 04:00:26 PM »
we have no problems of spamming in my club and we do not use allies a lot so we do not have unwritten rule problems. Mech  is no spam, is like a kind of army.

nids have some problems in this edition but rumours say nids is the first dex of 2014 so, just a a small period of patience

Offline ForgedInTheCrucible

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2013, 08:38:50 AM »
I think it is a perfectly acceptable rule. It allows people to build the army they want. I consider that to be a great thing! It doesn't necessarily JUST favor the person with the bigger collection. It also favours new gamers who are building up to their desired list; it is those players who built up their collection around a single FOC list who are "disadvantaged", in a sense, since their opportunity to adapt is spent.

Offline Breng77

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Re: Dual Force Org?
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2013, 08:58:43 AM »
I disagree that it helps the New player, as at smaller points (where they are building up from) it is all single FOC, so why buy multiples of units.  It is a good concept but as I said terrible execution, as it does not scale up or down.