Author Topic: Invauln saves  (Read 2464 times)

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Offline Mighty medley

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Invauln saves
« on: July 19, 2013, 01:27:17 AM »
Honestly I think that GW has gon mad!! (if they werent already)  the amouny of invuln saves that some armys can throw up is rediculous. A 2+ rerollable invuln save is just crazy. Much less they are flying and have 5 wounds... like really 3+ invaulns are bad 2+ are worse and can be weighted ??? Out but 2+ rerelable is rediculous...

Offline Breng77

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Re: Invauln saves
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2013, 08:53:02 AM »
It is not a given that you can get those though.  The only ways to get a 2+ re-rollable invul save that I am aware of are

Dark Eldar Character with Shadow field + Fortune, and rolling fortune is not a given.

Daemon of Tzeentch, + Grimior + Forewarning (or being fateweaver)

Neither of these is a given

Offline Maddog95

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Re: Invauln saves
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2013, 10:48:29 AM »
Although you're being a bit harsh, I sort of agree.
Storm Shields are what started all of this. Terminators will a 3++ Invul all the time is ridiculous.

It's what's caused every other Termie to feel like 'not quite good enough' even though they're rocking a 2+ Armour Save.
They're just not as good if they don't have access to it.

Offline Joe the Ripper

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Re: Invauln saves
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2013, 10:27:37 PM »
Gk librarian with a warding stave (2++ in CC only) with the divination power allowing Rerolling saves.

Offline Khe-Loc

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Re: Invauln saves
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2013, 06:40:34 AM »
There is no way to get a 2++ rerollable save with 100% certainty. They all rely on random psychic powers or alike.

Offline Breng77

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Re: Invauln saves
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2013, 07:38:09 AM »
Which was my point exactly.

Libby with staff has a 50% chance of getting it in any one game, and still can fail the power.

The shadow field trick if you use eldrad to improve your chances has  a 66% chance, a second Fraser raises it to 83%, and the power can fail.


Daemons can max out at 97% to get the power they need, but then lose it 33% of the time, or they can get it 95% of the time and fail it 1/9 times, not including failing to cast.

S daemons can get it on the most models the highest percent of the time.  However, that also costs 810 points before you buy any other unit to use it on.

Offline Theguy

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Re: Invauln saves
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2013, 11:29:01 PM »
Asurmen has a 2+ and 4++. He can chose D3 warlord traits, one of which is reroll saves of 1.

Offline Joe the Ripper

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Re: Invauln saves
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2013, 01:02:39 AM »
If you are finding yourself fighting against lists with awesomesauce invaul saves, work around it. Double STR weapons or ID weapons so they only need to fail just one save to be removed from the table. Some wargear bypasses EW/ID rules altogether. Draigo's Titan sword and CSM black mace come to mind. " if model fails ___ test, remove model from play". The game evolves and more mechanics like this seem to be cropping up here and there. Use and take advantage of them. If they are not stupid unbalanced, it won't chance. Hell drakes are the exception though. Damn the Daemon SR. It always passes when I hit it with my TL lascannons.

Offline Maddog95

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Re: Invauln saves
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2013, 04:04:02 AM »
If you are finding yourself fighting against lists with awesomesauce invaul saves, work around it. Double STR weapons or ID weapons so they only need to fail just one save to be removed from the table. Some wargear bypasses EW/ID rules altogether. Draigo's Titan sword and CSM black mace come to mind. " if model fails ___ test, remove model from play". The game evolves and more mechanics like this seem to be cropping up here and there. Use and take advantage of them. If they are not stupid unbalanced, it won't chance. Hell drakes are the exception though. Damn the Daemon SR. It always passes when I hit it with my TL lascannons.

Also, Nullzone.

Offline Michael Petrou

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Re: Invauln saves
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2013, 10:19:17 AM »
when a model has a super invulnerable save, u should not try to pass it. flood him with normal wounds and make him fail his armour save.

Offline mattblowers

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Re: Invauln saves
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2013, 10:48:49 AM »
when a model has a super invulnerable save, u should not try to pass it. flood him with normal wounds and make him fail his armour save.

That is what toxin sacs on termagants, hormogaunts, and gargoyles are for.
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Offline Breng77

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Re: Invauln saves
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2013, 10:51:36 AM »
That sounds great until you consider 2++ save screamers.  Being Daemons of Tzeentch they re-roll failed saves of 1.  So unless you misfortune them, or Null Zone them...this leads to the following.

Using the Humble bolter as an example.

It takes 108 bolter shots on average to put 1 wound on a screamer with a 2++ re-rollable.  So a squad of 9 with 2 wounds each takes 1944 bolter shots on average to kill.

So that is the equivalent of 139 marines rapid firing every turn for 7 Turns to kill those 9 models....Not very realistic.

So what you want to do (at least in the screamer case, as it is the most extreme because it is 9+ models with the save.)  is Try to do a few things.

1.) Jump on the squad when it fails the grimoir roll.  If this happens they have at best a 5++ or 4+ cover save.  Do your wounds then.

2.) Go first.  You can do damage to the squad prior to it being all buffed up and deal with it before it gets rolling

3.)Snipe the character with the Grimoir (or the 4++ save power or both), use things like the VIndicare (as you cannot LOS against it), Precision shots, Barrages, to put wounds on the Grimoir character.  He does not get the 2++ so he usually is trying to LOS or pass a 4+ cover.

4.) Ally Space Wolves:  Runic weapons shut down some psychic powers to keep the unit from being super buff.  Also Jaws ignores the great save and can snipe the characters in the squad giving the unit the buffs.

Againts other 2+ -re-roll saves.  Use AP2 if armor saves, or ignores cover against cover saves.  If it is a 2++ save, use positioning to negate it.  Move so that the closest model is not the one with the 2++ save, if in CC try to position so that your attacks hitting that save are at a different I step if possible.

Offline Michael Petrou

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Re: Invauln saves
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2013, 12:44:30 PM »
ok, in this specific unit, flood would not work..
but it generally does

Offline Breng77

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Re: Invauln saves
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2013, 12:57:43 PM »
Again not against any 2+ re-roll squad (fortuned 2+ armor etc.) unless you can position not to hit the 2+ saves.  But yes against standard 2+ saves, it works fine.

As noted against a 2+ re-roll with T4 it would take you 108 shots per wound.  So if you need to do say 3 wounds to a character with the save you are looking at 324 shots.  Still a very unreasonable amount, best to find other ways (AP 2 against armor, or ignores cover against cover) or manuver so you hit the non-2+ re-roll models first.

Offline Michael Petrou

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Re: Invauln saves
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2013, 01:03:24 PM »
i am talking about plain 2++ not re-rollable