Author Topic: Supplements? Where will it stop?  (Read 1800 times)

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Offline IDICBeer

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Supplements? Where will it stop?
« on: July 21, 2013, 09:04:57 AM »
A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away...well, a few years ago anyway, the Eldar Codex had supplements for each Eldar Craftworld, as did many other armies. Supplements back then were pretty normal and I remember needing three rule books to play my 13th Co. Space Wolves (Eye of Terror, Space Marines and Space Wolves), which to be honest was a right pain in the back side!

Then GW got sensible and started putting all the units and rules together in one Codex. Like the previous Eldar Codex. You could still play a fluffy Saim-Hann army if you wanted, but then you had the option to take whatever units you wanted as well. Although not everyone liked this method, no one can deny that it's a lot easier to flick through one Codex than two or three!

Judging from the recent release activity, it's pretty obvious that GW has gone back to supplements! Now, I can see how this is a good thing, injecting some excitement into our armies and bringing new things to old Codex's. I for one would love to have a Genestealer Cult supplement that sorts out the current Genestealer rules, and I can see a lot of potential for supplements from that point of view....

BUT, why are the suppliment the same price as the original Codex? I don't do the download thing, so what I buy will have to be the paper version. Do they really have to make the supplements hardback covered? Surely a Ģ20 soft back book would be fine for a supplement?

We all know that GW could have easily put all the Craftworld rules and extra fluff into a single Codex, but lets give them credit for not doing that, so that they can help out older Codex's and make a for extra pennies at the same time, but why are the supplements so expensive?

I don't actually own one of the new supplements, so maybe I am missing something here, maybe they are worth the money. Maybe I am just looking it from my point of view, where I have painted my Eldar army in my own colours so that I can pick and choose from any themed Craftworld I want. Sadly though, if I want to do that now and get the best from the rules, I will need to buy a Codex for each Craftworld?

What do you think of Supplements? Where will it stop?

Offline Khe-Loc

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Re: Supplements? Where will it stop?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2013, 11:42:37 AM »
I donīt really know what to expect of these supplements. The Iyanden one wasnīt that impressive imo.

I think that every new codex will get one simply to bring some cash for gw, but I donīt know if weīre really going back to the "glorious" day of the supplements.

Offline FTGT Evan

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Re: Supplements? Where will it stop?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2013, 01:21:28 PM »
Well, the Farsight one seems to have a lot more in terms of rules than the Iyanden one - 7 new characters, new warlord traits, different signature systems, and a force org change of Crisis suits from elites to Troops with one mandatory.

That said, is it worth the full codex price in hardback? I don't know. I got the ebook version which is cheaper, but still the same price as the ebook Codex Eldar and Rules. It also doesn't exactly play nice with my Kindle, which was frustrating.

I like reading on the kindle, but not sure I like the rule books on the kindle. I feel like it took my longer to figure out where things were and how the booked work not being able to flip through. That said, I'm going through now and putting in bookmarks for each set of important rules, which will let me reference them quickly.

Offline Dirty Harry

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Re: Supplements? Where will it stop?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2013, 09:12:27 PM »
I'm for it as long as the expanded supplements aren't bogged down with 3 pages of expanded rules and 40 pages of art and fluff. I'm a meat and potatoes kind of guy when it comes to books, it's why I have the dark vengeance rule book instead of the big hardcover one. Only suppluments I personally care about are maybe some hive fleet books for Tyranids, the Imperial Fists/Crimson Fists supplument for Space marines, the Night Lords supplument for Chaos (if I ever build chaos) and maybe an armageddon supplement for IG. (Armageddon is my favorite theater in the 40K lore so far)
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Offline Maddog95

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Re: Supplements? Where will it stop?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2013, 04:13:03 AM »
I'm the complete opposite of Dirty Harry.

I don't want any major Force Org shuffling an/or 'improvements' of the main books.
What they did with Iyanden was great! Special rules for Planetstrike and Cities of Death, their own Warlord traits, their own scenarios, their own wargear, ...
And tons and tons of background and fluff.

Supplements are supposed to be that in my eyes.
Some minor changes and besides that a collectors item for player dedicated to those armies and their playstyle.

Why else would you even bother playing the main book if the supplements are gonna be better?

Offline Face Eater

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Re: Supplements? Where will it stop?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2013, 09:36:38 AM »
I like the direction they are going with the supplements.
Firstly, I hope they do err on the side of caution with regards to the scope of the rules changes. The more they change the more it's going to change the balance and it quickly becomes open to being broken and the supplements start to be required to be competitive. That being said there are fluff based army styles that are difficult or not possible with the existing codex.
So with that being the case I can forgive the pricing, the fluff and artwork is really high quality and for the hardcore collectors of that particular Craftworld, Sept, Chapter, Legion etc is going to really enjoy it and if others think that the fluff isn't worth then they don't need to get it.
It's all going to increase the background of the races it supports as a whole which can only be a good thing for future game and story development.

Offline Calculon

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Re: Supplements? Where will it stop?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2013, 10:59:18 AM »
Im desperately hoping they come out with a Harlequin supplement.  Fluff me (pun intended) all you want, but also make sure there are some meaty rules in there and some purpose to me buying the supplement.

Offline mattblowers

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Re: Supplements? Where will it stop?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2013, 11:12:55 AM »
Where will it stop?  When the money runs out.  What GW has done is figure a way to make more money between codex releases.  My issue is more of a pragmatic one:  if you are going to use that shiny new supplement in a game against me and I don't know/haven't seen the specialties, you're gonna have to show it to me or not use it. 

Too often people get rules wrong, "I'm sure xxxx unit has yyyyyy".

Me, "Show me please, that seems a bit of a balance issue to me."

Them "It's right here... No... It's here... No... I could swear I saw it somewhere."

Then people call me a rules lawyer.  I'm sorry but you not knowing the rules and me calling you on it is a not a rules lawyer, it's called knowing the rules.  I think supplements will further compound this. 

If the bulk of them are like the Iyaden supplement, them I'm ok with it.  Only a few extra rules, mostly fluff and pics.  If people want to pony up the cash for that, more power to you.

 
Firstly, I hope they do err on the side of caution with regards to the scope of the rules changes. The more they change the more it's going to change the balance and it quickly becomes open to being broken and the supplements start to be required to be competitive.

And that is my biggest concern.  If you, say, put heldrake equivalents in a supplement then I will cry foul.  If it gives some variation but not access to something awesome, I'm in.  If it is required to play your army competitively, then it needs to be in the codex.  Period.
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Offline nelsonus

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Re: Supplements? Where will it stop?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2013, 10:45:07 AM »
I think their great. Adding further options is always good.

It will be awesome to go to a tournament and see so many different army compositions and styles. More books and more options lead to more inspiration.

The bad side is that it pigeonholes people into thinking that they have to pay and play the supplements, when really the codex's are the real meat.

Offline IDICBeer

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Re: Supplements? Where will it stop?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2013, 10:56:30 AM »
Where will it stop?  When the money runs out.  What GW has done is figure a way to make more money between codex releases.  My issue is more of a pragmatic one:  if you are going to use that shiny new supplement in a game against me and I don't know/haven't seen the specialties, you're gonna have to show it to me or not use it. 

Too often people get rules wrong, "I'm sure xxxx unit has yyyyyy".

Me, "Show me please, that seems a bit of a balance issue to me."

Them "It's right here... No... It's here... No... I could swear I saw it somewhere."

Then people call me a rules lawyer.  I'm sorry but you not knowing the rules and me calling you on it is a not a rules lawyer, it's called knowing the rules.  I think supplements will further compound this. 

If the bulk of them are like the Iyaden supplement, them I'm ok with it.  Only a few extra rules, mostly fluff and pics.  If people want to pony up the cash for that, more power to you.

 
Firstly, I hope they do err on the side of caution with regards to the scope of the rules changes. The more they change the more it's going to change the balance and it quickly becomes open to being broken and the supplements start to be required to be competitive.

And that is my biggest concern.  If you, say, put heldrake equivalents in a supplement then I will cry foul.  If it gives some variation but not access to something awesome, I'm in.  If it is required to play your army competitively, then it needs to be in the codex.  Period.

You raise some very good points here, something I hadn't even thought about, but yeah, you no longer have to know your enemies! You have to know all their supplements as well =)

Offline nelsonus

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Re: Supplements? Where will it stop?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2013, 11:18:45 AM »
Iyanden would be easy, since theres not many rules. But I can imagine farsight would be a pain, remembering 7 different commanders.

It might create a bigger gap between people who can study 40k and the casuals who don't have the time but are still good at the game.

Offline Face Eater

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Re: Supplements? Where will it stop?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2013, 12:13:42 PM »
That is a good point, in the same way that many places allow some Forge World models. Either way a player that is fielding something from a FW book or a Supplement that doesn't allow you to see the rules at the start of the game in the hopes that you haven't heard about it before and is going to surprise you is being a total ---.
Another reason not to put too many rules changes in each one. If they don't go overboard then it's ability to rejuvenate an old codex is going to be a pleasant benefit. We are coming from the direction of new codexes here, but think about a few years down the line. Maybe you've been playing your buddies standard Tau list for 3 or 4 years, him getting the download of the Farsight conclave to change it up is going to keep it interesting for both of you. Of course if you are lucky enough to have several armies then you can change it around all the time but a lot of players don't have the time or money for multiple armies.
I think the special characters are pretty important for these Supplements. If, for example they brought out a Imperial Fist codex and it didn't have the stat's for Chapter Master Vladimir Pugh I would consider that very remiss.