Author Topic: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase  (Read 5998 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline brianstockel

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
(Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« on: April 09, 2017, 11:09:11 AM »
https://youtu.be/APVJADDH9-k?t=442

In this video, he talks about what he confirms are changes. The assault phase was the one I thought was one of the coolest ideas for starters.

The gist of it if you don't want to look at the video is that if you declare the assault, you go first. So as an example, Orks would attack Space Marines first on the first turn of the assault. This includes your Nob with the power klaw.

I'm curious to hear thoughts about this. My thinking is it's a significant change that doesn't break the game. In 6th, the assault was nerfed so you couldn't charge out of reserves, hitting Space Wolves and drop pod armies pretty hard. The entire game shifted at that point to a shooting game and has been there ever since. As far as this change and not breaking the game, it's enough of a change to give assault armies an advantage in the phase they need it and not make shooting armies useless. Everyone still gets their overwatch, you still have to have enough bodies to survive to get into assault and you have to assault with enough to clear a large portion of your opponents guys before they hit you back.

I personally like the idea. I think it will balance the global meta a bit where either players are having to consider assault defense a little more or dust off their old Blood Angels/Orks models and try to dominate in close range combat.

Of course, this is purely speculation but I'm curious to hear other thoughts.

Lastly, as a disclaimer, I just recently popped open (finally!) my Ork Battle Force box that I purchased back in '14. I'm seriously looking forward to playing Orks if this change comes through!

DeffBossGitKrusha

  • Guest
Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2017, 11:29:55 AM »
Quote
and drop pod armies pretty hard. 
I don't recall that being a thing. Not even in 5th edition.

As to the meat of the subject, I don't see a problem with assault in unit going first. I think the amount of shooting and the prospective Armour Saves balance it out.  Your Marines shoot at my Orks, we finally assault The nob kills a few and the Marines make most of their saves. Orks win only because they outnumber the marines and don't take enough losses. with a AoS LD system both sides test and loose models. The Marines most likely loos none due to both High LD and being Space Marines. Orks loose a few due to low LD, combat continues, next turn the Marines put a larger dent into the Orks or the Orks wip out the Marines..or the unlikely Draw.
This encourages larger unit sizes. 5 Marines isn't enough. 
It should play out roughly the same at that Level. ( Squad vs Squad)
I'm sure there are other factors we don't know yet.

A fixed movement stat will have to be something to plan around.
Good luck with your Orks! Get um built and painted!

Online Draco765

  • Battle Brother
  • *
  • Posts: 176
    • View Profile
Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2017, 06:31:08 PM »
Necron assault units also like the idea.

Harlequins do not.

It will all come down to how far different units are able to travel in a turn, factoring in possible transport changes etc.

The rumors that have been leaked are being looked at in the light of current rule sets, when for all we know, the current rules just won't apply anymore.

Online SharkoutofWata

  • Chapter Master
  • *
  • Posts: 726
    • View Profile
Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2017, 06:43:01 PM »
Nearly every Assault based army but Orks gets shafted with this idea.  Just off the top of my head are Blood Angel Baal Strikeforces, who are put into a Detachment to get a +1 Initiative on the charge that is now useless.  Or Genestealers, who are paying points per model for their I6 and getting no benefit.  Weapon based Initiative bonuses, Metamorph and Lash Whips are useless.  In Cult armies, there'd be no reason to take anything but Acolytes if the only thing that matters is who gets the charge.  Why pay 14pts when I can pay 8pts for the same three Rending attacks.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 09:23:36 PM by SharkoutofWata »

Online Sensenbob

  • Battle Brother
  • *
  • Posts: 175
  • WHERE IS THE DEAFF COMPANYYY!?!?! :D
    • View Profile
Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2017, 03:23:02 AM »
I think this shows that if this one thing is changed there would have to be a lot more changes for all armies across the board. Also it would make Counter-Charge units quite more powerful!

Atm i really don't see things like PowerKlaws and Thunder Hammers going first, that would be mean!
=Blood Angels=

DeffBossGitKrusha

  • Guest
Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2017, 08:53:30 AM »
I think this shows that if this one thing is changed there would have to be a lot more changes for all armies across the board. Also it would make Counter-Charge units quite more powerful!

Atm i really don't see things like PowerKlaws and Thunder Hammers going first, that would be mean!
I can agree with you but your last part seems to be in current think, not "new think". lol. For all we know those weapons will act differently than they do now.
I am fairly sure those weapons used to work at inish during 2nd. So who knows.

Offline brianstockel

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2017, 07:30:46 AM »
https://youtu.be/NXD4X41OGZk?t=32m30s

The Glacial Geek makes a logical argument for having the assaulter go first.

Couple of reasons why people don't like the idea in the response comments but there has to be some positive to it. The idea that you might get some sort of "First Strike" USR which either raises your initiative value on the first turn of combat or simply lets you strike first in the turn you make a charge.

DeffBossGitKrusha

  • Guest
Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2017, 11:38:03 AM »
Interesting video.
I subscribed, have to see what else he's got going on.

At one point he says maybe a _1 or _2 to inish. I don't like that and hope it is actually charging unit strikes first. Only gaining a +1 or +2 doesn't do very much, or I should say, enough. Orks been bumped up to a 3 or 4 is hardly good for them, mostly I mean if their weapons work like they work now...Poorly.
Orks had a double inish rule back in their 3rd edition codex but they also had rules that hurt any save better than a 4+. So going at the same time as Marines worked well enough. Back in those days My Orks were charged more often than they got to charge.
If the charging unit and every weapon in it get to strike first I'm all for it. It helps my Orks and things are other wise normal if My unit is charged by anything.
My friends Dark Furies rush in with a billion Lightning claw attacks and 30 boys up and evaporate. Just being able to swing before that kind of unit will go a long way, even though I don't expect to wipe out a powered armoured unit anymore.

Still, there's a lot we don't know yet and I'm looking forward to seeing more rumors.

Offline brianstockel

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2017, 09:33:31 PM »
I'm looking forward to some sort of change as well.

I wish WH40k had a sort of pre-game talk show. With the anticipated/expected changes, you would think there would be some chatter about potential lists and stand-out units based on speculation.

Online mcphro

  • Primarch
  • *
  • Posts: 1401
    • View Profile
Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2017, 09:06:30 AM »
Sisters of Battle really benifit from this...

Sisters  Repentia... Pentinent Engines... Maybe even celestines with a Priest with an eviscerator...

450 points gets you 3 x 10 man (woman) sisters repentia units (or 6 x 5 woman units). Using MSU unit idea, that many charging any army gives you a moment of pause!

Can they charge out a Rhino is my question!

Offline Goblinchow

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2017, 10:25:31 PM »
In a game between IG and Harlequins, the following exchange occurred.  The Guard player was rushing into combat against a Harlequin unit.  The Guard player said, playfully, "Imperial guard has a special rule.   We throw more dice than you do."  He scooped up a big handful of dice.  The Harlequin player (Cathie's Son in Law) looked up and said, "Oh!  Harlequins have a special rule too.  We throw ours first!"  and plucked a few dice right out of the IG players hand!   

I'm going to miss the initiative aspect.  Playing Harlequins, and a few other armies was kind of fun.  Sitting back and daring the other player to charge you was an interesting element of the game.  In the above anecdote, the Harlequin player ended up wiping out almost half of the IG unit before they even got to play.  Charges could be dangerous against a quick opponent with great initiative.  Hopefully the defending unit will still get some kind of break, or the whole game will become a race, with units chasing each other around trying not to get within charge range.  I hope they leave overwatch intact and if they take away my Dark Angel's Grim resolve and Supreme Fire Discipline, I will probably rage quit!   Those rules, along with a few others made Dark Angels a unique and fun force to play.   It seems that every faction had a few special rules that made them feel different from every other faction.  I have Word Bearers and Dark Angels built up.  I also have enough stuff for a full space marine codex army to be built, and a pretty decent start towards a Deathwatch army.  Kirk (Cathie's Son in Law) has blood Angels and Space Wolves.  Cassie,  (Cathie's Daughter) has Ultramarines and Grey Knights.  All of these factions are fun to play together because they work in different ways.  Kirk's Blood Angels love to assault, but he really has to think twice about how to get into combat with my Deathwing Terminators without eating 20 bolter rounds at BS4.  I have to think very carefully about dealing with Cathie's Solitaire during a blitz round. 

If they mess with the assault and combat phases to the point that every army plays the same, and it's just a race to get the other guy first, there is no real reason to finish building my other two armies.   All of those little differences make owning multiple armies worth the extra cost and effort.  My biggest fear about 8E is that every army will end up feeling generic and there will be no reason to finish my Deathwatch and my marines (Which might end up being Imperial Fists.)  The loss of the whole initiative aspect of the game just confirms my fears, as that was a major difference between units and even whole factions.  I wonder if they are going to give some other advantages to the units that had high initiative scores, or if our Harlequins are just going to become fragile Imperial Guard conscripts with funny haircuts.

Offline TearoftheDragon

  • Battle Brother
  • *
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2017, 03:42:26 AM »
I agree, some armies will either need something to replace their high initiative or be reduced in points but also playability.  Eldar can be made fast to ensure the charge but what about Blood Angels.

Offline Alawatakima

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2017, 05:57:51 PM »
Just read,
Charging units can be within 1" of enemy models for the charge to be successful?

Enemy can now Overwatch as many charging units as it wants??!!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/01/new-warhammer-40000-charge-phasegw-homepage-post-4/

Crazy... :o

Offline brianstockel

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2017, 07:24:01 PM »
Alawatakima, I missed that the first time through where you can overwatch as many times as you can until you're engaged. No more charge from 12" with 40 cultists to soak up the overwatch and then charge your marines without the chance to get shot. Very interesting.

Online SharkoutofWata

  • Chapter Master
  • *
  • Posts: 726
    • View Profile
Re: (Potential) Changes to the Assault Phase
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2017, 12:04:51 PM »
This is the first thing that outright upsets me, not just threatens to rustle my jimmies.  Everyone having the same charge range means a bad dice roll, like now, can leave a valuable unit in the open and get wrecked, except to add to that, the enemy unit can charge and swing ALL of their attacks first.  So the proverbial trip and everyone and their brother shoots and clubs the morons on the ground like baby seals.  Discarding Initiative needed other things to make a charge tactical, practical and and worth committing to, but still having the chance to fail a six inch charge, only to be beaten in the face by the very unit you've been corralling, that's not a good move.  That's way too much benefit to be given to a random dice roll.